homosexuality and the Bible

A_Christian writes:

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However,
the indivdual recognizes that he is living in error and is trying to
change with GOD's help.

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But it has never happened. We've never been able to change anybody's sexual orientation.

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You need to remember what it was like being an adolescent and going
through puberty. You need to set aside the attitude and discover
alittle common sense.

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No, that's my argument to you. You need to remember what it was like going through puberty, set aside your attitude, and discover some common sense:How could anybody convince you that you really like something you detest? How can anybody be confused over the question of, "Do you want to kiss that person"?Do you really think you could be convinced to go gay?If not, what makes you think anybody else could?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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Does a person wake up one morning & say, "I want to be a prostitute?"
Things happen in steps and stages. Choices we make during our lives
and the friends we listen to all have an influence. Some are for
the good and some are bad.

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A couple years ago I was unemployed for a good six month stretch. To make ends meet, I spent a couple months as a homosexual. We all know that homosexuality, like prostitution, is borne out of economic necessity, after all.

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Homosexuals recruit the young and sin is sin.

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There's this gay drill sargeant on my street. Every time I pass his office, he yells out, "TEN HUT! You look like the kind of man we could use in this-man-on-that-man's army, son! We'll pay for college if you do it with another guy!"Because as we all know, homosexuals have an active recruitment drive, and will not rest until the whole world is gay. They'd be a lot more efficient if they involved the Freemasons, though.

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The ONLY reason for marriage is to start a responsible family unit with GOD at the top over the father supported by the wife and raising children in the understanding of the LORD.

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Wow. You don't believe we should feel lust for women, or that love is a good reason for marriage?Man, I'd hate to be your wife...

Brian writes:

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I think that there was recently a homosexual marrige in a church in California? Do you know anything about that?

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Nope. No state in the United States allows gay marriage as a legal contract.There are many religious sects that recognize marriage between people of the same sex and have been performing such marriages for years.However, Governor Gray Davis has said that he would sign AB 205 which would provide many of the state rights that come along with marriage to civil unions, but they, like Vermonts, are not marriage and do not convey any of the federal rights.This is in comparison to Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden which do confer same-sex marriage.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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However, Governor Gray Davis has said that he would sign AB 205 which would provide many of the state rights that come along with marriage to civil unions, but they, like Vermonts, are not marriage and do not convey any of the federal rights.

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Somehow I don't think he'll get the chance.Just a feeling I get.

messanjaH responds to DC85:

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If it was wrong why did your God let him feel it?

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Uh... free will.

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It's "free will" to like Rocky Road ice cream? It's "free will" to like purple is a wonderful color but orange is hideous? It's "free will" to like red heads over brunettes? It's "free will" to have that little spot right above the inside of your right elbow that if brushed in just the right way makes you shiver all over?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

A_Christian writes:

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Does a person wake up one morning & say, "I want to be a prostitute?"

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Nope. And if you ask them if they like being a prostitute, if they like what they're doing as a prostitute, if they feel good when they are turning a trick, you'll probably get a negative response.Compare this to gay people. Ask them if they like being gay, if they like what they're doing when they're having sex with someone of the same sex, if they feel good when having sex with someone of the same sex, you'll probably get a positive response.

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Choices we make during our lives
and the friends we listen to all have an influence.

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How can somebody choose to like something they find abhorrent?Please, tell us how we might go about convincing you to become gay to the point that you would actively go out and seek sexual contact with another person of your sex.Do you really think somebody to convince you to kiss someone you didn't find sexually attractive?And if we can't do it to you, what makes you think anybody could do it to anybody else?

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Do you really believe that if it "feels" good that it's good.

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No, we really believe that if it cannot be changed and shows all the signs of being biological in origin, then it isn't a "sin."

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I would also submit to you that through the middle of the 20th
century, most criminals were considered to have genetic disorders
and that their behavior was hereditary.

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But they had no evidence for it. How does one find a gene when one has trouble just getting an image of the chromosome?

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Homosexuals recruit the young

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(*blink!*)You didn't just say that, did you?Tell us, how does one do this? How does one convince somebody else that they really find someone else attractive? How could we do this to you? What would we have to do to convince you that you're really gay, that you really want to have sex with someone of the same sex, that you really want to put your mouth "down there," that you really want someone else to put his genitals "down there," etc.If it's that easy, then we should be able to do it to you, so help us out here. What would it take to make you gay?

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The ONLY reason for
marriage is to start a responsible family unit with GOD at the
top over the father supported by the wife and raising children in
the understanding of the LORD.

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Says who? You? Why should we believe you?If this were the only reason for marriage, why is there no compulsion to have children in order to have a legal marriage? Why is it that you can't get divorced if you never have children but you can get divorced if you never have sex?You do understand the difference between your idea of what makes a good marriage and everybody else's idea, right?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Dan Carroll writes:

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There's this gay drill sargeant on my street. Every time I pass his office, he yells out, "TEN HUT! You look like the kind of man we could use in this-man-on-that-man's army, son! We'll pay for college if you do it with another guy!"

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Oh, come on! Everybody knows it's a lottery. You go into the store, buy the scratcher, and if you find three triangles, you win!------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Hi Rrhian,Hope you are well. I have been unable to find anything to support what I said, I definatetly have a vague recollection of it, I must have been confusing it with something else. Thanks for the help.To everyone that is reading the thread, I retract the statement regarding the gay marriage in a church.I also apologise for wasting your time if you were looking for references to it on the Net.Brian.

A "true" Christian puts matters of God and Church before matters of the state. So, "in the eyes of God," they are truly married. Thus, when one discusses "marriage" it might be good to differentiate between the two.

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"In 1984, long before gay marriage had come to the fore as a political issue, the UUA General Assembly went on record supporting the right of UU ministers to perform gay unions. In 1996, the GA, meeting in Indianapolis, approved a resolution advocating legal recognition of same-sex marriages During the proceedings, UUA President the Rev. John Buehrens invited gay and lesbian married couples to come up on stage; they received a five-minute standing ovation."

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Want more? Just go to this site and use the search engine. Unitarian Church------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 08-21-2003]

Rrhain:Did you attend public junior & high school? Look man, when I attended
sex and girls were what most guys seemed to talk about. I was taught
by example that sex was something that happened after marriage----
my parents dated 3 months before they got married in 1948. I was
born 1953---the first child was a miscarriage 1951.What I am saying is that the peer group puts alot of influence on
an individual to CONFORM. I was SAVED when I was 9 years old. I
was was tall and skinny. Hey, I wanted to have muscles and impress
people (girls too). There was this one guy in gym who had the looks, muscles, and dates (if he wanted them). He was a turn on. Fortunately, I knew that coveting (according to the BIBLE) would only lead me into mischief.I was a Bible thumper then too. I had few friends, but those I had
were genuine. I was called a fag, preacher boy, girl, cretin, etc.
One guy that was always busting my chops and made fun of my "prudish"
view of sex would later get AIDS in the 1980's . I never
called him anything nasty and he had lots of dates in high school.
He "acted" the real stud and yet made fun of me for my HONEST
convictions.When I was 19 I filled out and I went to art school (thought I'd
go into advertising). That's another story. Anyway, I loved antiques
(still do) and went to an area flea market. This older guy starts
to talk to me. At the next show he starts asking me where I went
to college, etc... I told him I was taking art classes and he
suggested I follow him to his gallery to look at his etchings.He seemed a nice guy---I wanted to see the art. He starts by touching
my shoulder and asks about money, and asks if I could use some. He
then says he has a friend who is into photography and likes to take
pictures of males. He says I have a nice body and great eyes and
starts to poke me in the chest and says real good money...Sorry, I said I have personal convictions and I start telling him
about Christ. The guy shut right up and I left. His gallery didn't
stay around long after that (I never said anything). So you see,
even the Germans didn't all hate Jews or want to kill people but
it is the choices you make and the slope gets steeper until you
believe that what is wrong really is not...

Please click "reply" on the message to which you are responding ... not simply the last one you happened to read.db

A_Christian responds to me:

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Did you attend public junior & high school?

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Yep. In many places, too. Air Force brat...I'm from everywhere.

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Look man, when I attended
sex and girls were what most guys seemed to talk about.

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And do you really think you could have been convinced to kiss somebody you really didn't want to and actually like it?

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What I am saying is that the peer group puts alot of influence on
an individual to CONFORM.

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And where do we find any societal attempts to make people gay? Look at the movies. Look at TV. Look at books and magazines and newspapers and web sites. We see nothing but heterosexuality shoved everywhere. Please, please show me where there's a peer group that puts a lot [two words] of influence on an individual to "conform" to being gay.We life in a culture where "that's so gay" is considered acceptable slang.I asked you what it would take to turn you gay. I'm serious. You've advocated that a person can be "recruited" into being gay. How? How would one go about this? How could I possibly convince you that having sex with someone of your own sex would be a pleasurable experience and of such intensity that you would actually go out and actively seek partners on your own?

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I was SAVED when I was 9 years old. I
was was tall and skinny. Hey, I wanted to have muscles and impress
people (girls too). There was this one guy in gym who had the looks, muscles, and dates (if he wanted them). He was a turn on. Fortunately, I knew that coveting (according to the BIBLE) would only lead me into mischief.

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Here's the question: Did you want to kiss him? Did you consider that if you were to kiss him and put your mouth "down there" and have him do the same to you, you'd like it? Did you get an erection when he was around and did you want to know if he had one, too? Did you fantasize about what sorts of sexual play you two would do together?If not, then how on earth could you possibly say that you were "confused" about anything? I'm not saying you didn't like him and admire him. I'm simply pointing out that you had no real sexual feelings for him.

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He seemed a nice guy---I wanted to see the art. He starts by touching
my shoulder and asks about money, and asks if I could use some. He
then says he has a friend who is into photography and likes to take
pictures of males. He says I have a nice body and great eyes and
starts to poke me in the chest and says real good money...

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You're 19. You're an adult. You're hardly "confused." There's a simple response to somebody hitting on you:"I'm sorry. I'm not interested."Now you know how women feel. It seems to me that you're upset that somebody found you attractive and wanted to have sex with you and was bold enough to ask you if you felt the same way.

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So you see,
even the Germans didn't all hate Jews

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Excuse me? What does this have to do with anything?Godwin's Law: First person to mention the Nazis automatically loses the debate. Anybody who thinks his point can be most effectively illuminated by comparisons to the Holocaust understands neither the Holocaust nor his own argument.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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It's "free will" to like Rocky Road ice cream? It's "free will" to like purple is a wonderful color but orange is hideous? It's "free will" to like red heads over brunettes? It's "free will" to have that little spot right above the inside of your right elbow that if brushed in just the right way makes you shiver all over?

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That was the most pointless comment I have ever seen.------------------
"I believe in christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."-C.S. Lewisholla at me for any reason at: messenjahjr@yahoo.com

hi, Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a good example of the difference in the intellectual capabilities between adults and children. You are not equipped yet with the ability to think abstractly, people of your age just love 'concrete' facts. It is not your fault, it is just the way our brains develop, according to Piaget anyway.Rrhain's response is actually a very good one, and one that an adult can 'decypher', you are probably the only one that didnt get the jist of his comments!He basically blew the 'free-will defence' out of the water with his 'pointless comment'.It is good that you are participaring in these debates, and I take my hat off to you, but you are at a slight disadvantage on ocassion, but I admire your determination.Brian.

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The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population. DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested. The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

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It could be incidental coincidence, I wouldnt say this research proves it happens genetically as a fact. Also as I said before, gays would be influenced by close friends, maybe some of their close friends were their relatives, they might have even been mentors to an extent. Now this is all hypothetical but it is highly likely to happen. As people have many influences in their lives. Their relatives could have influenced their choices. There is two other probable explanations to that research you blatantly considered fact.------------------
"I believe in christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."-C.S. Lewisholla at me for any reason at: messenjahjr@yahoo.com[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 08-21-2003]