A Modern Day Miracle Man - Establishes the Supernatural Realm

This really falls short of proof - or even solid evidence.However, since your examples supposedly followed the prediction by a reasonably short period of time, there is a way for you to provide better evidence.Choose 3 recent predictions that have not yet ocurred, and which could not reasonable be engineered by TB Joshua or his supporters.If one of them proves to be accurate to a reasonable level of detail within a month I will concede that you have offered reasonable evidence. If none of them have been fulfilled in that time period, will you accept that your evidence may be less than you claim ?

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I'm sorry WHAT! Anyway you cannot make such a void statement and think that it serves as prove for whatever you are trying to prove.

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It is an observation. All you have is claims of faith healing (an area rife with fraud and with no solid record of authenticated cases) and reports of predictions written AFTER the supposed fulfilment. It's easy to "predict" things after they ocurr.

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I'm not going to do this there is enough proof in the earlier prophecies that he has made that it isn't a lucky guess or a mere coincidence,..

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If you really beleived that he could reliably predict the future, you would have no hesitation in doing it. Or at least offering a reasonable explanation why you could not.If you don't trust his ability to make real predicitons, why should I ?

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A Family plane crash
On Sunday 19th April, 2009, Prophet TB Joshua prophesied about a family travelling by plane. This is what he said:

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On Friday, remember putting it in prayer. A situation where families will be inside a plane - when I say family, like husband and wife, children and others - and something happens inside the air. Friday of the month - put it in prayer and fast. Please fast and pray. Pray for the family. Where are these family going? Where are they going? I’m seeing crash. So, all over the world, if you are moving with family, your children, yourself, please read Psalm 91:7-end. Jesus will be with you.

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This appears to indicate a crash on the following Friday, the 24th April - the day that he asks his congregation to pray and fast, the last Friday of the month. Note that here it is referred to using the future tense.

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Prophet T.B. Joshua again made reference to the prophecy regarding the family on the following Sunday, the 26th April 2009, saying:

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Last time I told you about a family that entered the plane. I said the whole family, I saw the whole family -they entered the private jet and the plane crashed. The whole family — what happened? I’m praying, I’m praying that, what would make the family ... if it’s just one person that would go but all the family, they just entered the plane. Where? What happened?

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Here it is referred to in the past tense. TB Joshaa is speaking as though that the crash had already happened. He doesn't repeat his warning, he doesn't ask his congregation to pray on future Fridays, there is nothing to indicate that the event had not yet ocurred. The 24th of April was past - the 22nd May still in the future.The evidence indicates that TB Joshua meant the 24th April - not 22nd May.Of course it would be far better evidence to produce a prediction BEFORE the fact, and see it come true. Perhaps Cedre you would like to tell us the reason why you refuse to even consider that.

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You have added your own words to the prophecy, TB Joshua doesn't include the words "the last" As you have above and therefore your whole argument crumbles.

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Wrong. Even if that were a valid criticism (and it is not) the other points I raise still stand.You yourself asserted that the "Friday of the Month" must refer to a specific day. It is clear that a word is missing - because more is needed to make it refer to a specific day. "Last" is certainly a candidate - and based on the other evidence one of the most likely ones. Can you think of a word that would make it refer to May 22nd ? I cannot.

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As to the past tense used here, TB Joshua is telling his congregation what he saw in his vision, of course in his vision he did see the family enter the plane like a movie if you would, so the use of past tense doesn't mean that he was suggesting that it had already happened.

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Yet his vision was in the past when he spoke on the 19th - but in the quotes you gave he does not use the past tense at all on the 19th - and he does not use any other on the 26th.So the evidence that he meant 24th April and not 22nd May is:He specifically asked for prayers to be said on the 24th April, and on no other FridayOn the 19th he issued a warning against traveling, but on no later day. (And if he had specifically meant the 22nd May he should have repeated the warning on the previous Sunday ! - the 17th May)The "Friday of the Month" plausibly means the 24th April - and does NOT plausibly mean 22nd May, as a specific date.While the reference on the 19th referred to it as a future event, the repeat on the 26th exclusively uses the past tense.The only date clearly indicated is the 24th April. There is NO reference to any later date whatsoever.

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I'm not going to let you get away with this statement. Why am I wrong when that phrase has been deliberately added to TB Joshua's original statement. And why isn't my criticism valid?

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Why I am not allowed to suggest that the missing word is "last" ? That is all that I did, and I had good reasons for doing it. Reasons which you have not refuted.

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"Friday of the Month" is not your typical way of speaking, but you must not overlook the fact that this man is not a Englishman, the bottom line is there is no missing word here you can view the video of the live broadcast or you can ask the many people who watched TB Joshua make this prophecy.

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It is apparently not YOUR way if speaking either, since you offer no viable alternative. And even if I could see the video (and I know of no way to do that) and even if Joshua said no more it is still likely that he missed the word out of his speech. People who are speaking DO sometimes do that, just as Joshua neglects to say what he is praying for on the 26th.

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And you're forgetting the fact that he reminded his congregation about that same prophecy again later on and here he says he will pray that instead of the whole family going it will only be one.

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I certainly did not forget it - as I pointed out it offered NO evidence that any other date than the 24th April was meant.

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If as you suggest the accident had already taken place by the time of his second mention of the event then why did he have to pray as he did above.

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Perhaps because he did not know what had happened (he could hardly have news of the crash since it did not happen), or perhaps praying for the souls of the dead or even for the survivors or those left behind. Joshua doesn't say what he is praying for or why.

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It's interesting to note the TB Joshua disagrees with what you have presented here, on his website.

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No, it is expected. It is more interesting that you neither quote nor link to this statement, so I can answer it.

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The men who made the statement has every right to decide what he meant. I cannot speak for you and you cannot speak for me.

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Normally that would be true - people can misspeak. However if he misspoke then it negates this example as a valid example of a successful prediction. For that we must look at what he said BEFORE the alleged fulfillment - not what he claims that he meant after the fact.

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Because they are your words not TB Joshua's words, your twisting a man's words to get him to agree with your theory.

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No I am not. YOU are makign false accusations as an excuse to avoid the evidence.

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I will re offer my previous alternative. an Alternative that rhymes better with the known facts and does justice to the prophecy:

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You can't reoffer your alternative for the missing word, because you haven't offered one.

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If the prophet was reciting his vision then the tense that was used here still makes perfect sense, because in his vision he did to be sure see the family enter the plane as if it had already happened, the next line bears this point out further;

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If the best you can do is argue that one line of evidnece is inconclusive - and that is all you are doing here - you have not got much of a case.

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What about the phrase "Friday of the Month", what could it mean?
I dislike speculating, but I will do it anyway to appease you.

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You seem very happy to speculate that the only reaosn he sued the past tense on the 26th was that he was reciting his vision - when he did not do so on the 19th.

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To begin, this phrase could have no words missing more especially when TB Joshua used a similar phrase in another one of his prophecies only on that occasion he replaced month with week, it doesn’t seem very likely that he would repeat the same mistake like that, it is more plausible that he did it on purpose. Therefore the possibility is there that the phrase is complete as it is and has got no missing parts.

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Yet - so far as either of us knows - the phrase is meaningless. Thus it is more plausible that he missed a word. (And of course "the month" would be April, and the only Friday left in April would be the 24th...)

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Or it was supposed to read as you have suggested or as the 22th day of the May month,

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I have not suggested any such thing. It is far more likely that only one word was missing, and the assumption that he meant to give that specific date begs the question.

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note that we are both speculating here, we can be equally wrong, if you want to reduce this to speculation then my alternative carries the same merit as yours , seeing that neither of us has proof for our respective guesses at least in the written form, that is the original phrase bears neither your additions or mine.

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Except for the fact that my suggestions involve no implausibilities, and both of yours do.

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If my alternative is correct then TB Joshua’s prophecy was incredibly on the dot.

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Because that alternative ASSUMES that he got it on the dot.

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The fact that there was no plane crash reported between, 19 April and 26 April, further weakens your rendition,

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How could it ?
(Indeed it is entirely possible that TB Joshua introduced the idea of it being a private jet on the 26th BECAUSE he had not heard of a crash on the 24th - the quote on the 19th says no such thing. Reports of the crash of a private jet somewhere overseas might well not have reached him in time).

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The reason for why you so adamantly want to deny this prophecy is that you never viewed it with an open-heart, you will claim you have but you and I both know you didn’t, it is because you have a prior-commitment to naturalism and you don’t want to nullify that commitment. Unlike you I did look at this prophecy your way, in fact many times but I just cannot ignore all the points I have mentioned above that make it impossible for this to have been a wild guess.

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I am not the one making false accusations, ignoring evidence or begging the question. You are doing all of these. A quote about motes and beams comes to mindAs for your response to bluegenes the photographs clearly show that the plane in question uses propellors, rather than jets. Did you not see that ? They are clearly visible.

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You sure have by adding your own thought to the phrase.

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As I sated, all I did was offer an entirely reasonable idea of what Joshua meant. I did not use quote marks, and the words that YOU attributed to Joshua were clearly distinguished form the rest.

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I'm not making any false accusation, where did I make one please be specific.

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You are falsely accusing me of twisting Joshua's words.Be truly honest - you just don't like the idea that Joshua meant the 24th April, because that makes the prophecy a failure. That is the ONLY reason for your accusation.

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Is pointing out that you blatantly added your own word to a the phrase a false accusation, my gosh, anyone with eyes can see that you have added a word to the phrase.

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And anybody with eyes could see that I used bolding to distinguish MY word from Joshua's. Thus your accusation is false.

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I can my alternative was that he was reciting his vision, and you have yet to show that this isn't possible.

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So, when, on the 119th Joshua said "Firday of the month" he was "reciting his vision" - how is THAT an alternative meaning of the phrase ? You need to pay attention to the context.

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what one line?

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A line of evidence, not a line of text. The exclsuive use of past tense on the 26th is one line of evidence.

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This fits the evidence, are you forgetting a private plane did crash on the 22th of May a Friday, that matches the prophets description, the passengers also match his description. so May alternative seems more likely than yours, you don't want to see this because it throws your entire world view out of whack.

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Only if you assume in advance that the "prophecy" is likely genuine. However to do so, begs the question. Since I am taking an honest, unbiased look at the evidence I cannot make that assumption.

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Exactly as either of us knows, not as TB Joshua knows, since he uses the same phrase elsewhere only replacing "month" with "week" So the phrase is most likely deliberate, and not a mistake.

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That is not a rational argument. It is just speculation.

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I'm sorry it doesn't if you feel like you can add the word last to the phrase I am at liberty to also add what I want as long as the phrase is still meaningful.

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That is obviously wrong. Just because I can make an entirely plausible suggestion as to what Joshua likely meant does not give you license to put up any change you like as if it were equally plausible. If you can offer evidence - real evidence that does not rely on begging the question, that Joshua DID mean 22nd May, now would be a good time to do it.

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What implausibilities does my suggestion involve?

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The idea that the phrase is complete - when you have absolutely no evidence of that is implausible. The idea that Joshua meant to give a specific date rather than something like "last" or "fourth" is implausible.

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How did you determine this?

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Because missing one word out is very easy. Missing out the whole date is more difficult.

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You sure have as this post demonstrates.

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Again you make a compeltely false accusation.

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Its not reasonable, its not because there was no plane crash on the day you're alluding to

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In other words, your only reason for rejecting it is that it makes the prophecy a failure. That's just begging the question again.

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You did you added the word "last" and that's not in the original quote of TB Joshua.

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And I clearly distinguished it from the quote. As you know.

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You would like that wouldn't you?

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I certainly would like you to be honest.

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"Its not a rational argument? another unsupported claim, where is the irrationality in my argument? Tb Joshua used the same wording elsewhere and therefore he probably knows what it means.

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According to you he only uses a SIMILAR phrase elsewhere. And you haven't given ANY reason to connect that to your conclusion. THAT is why it is not a rational argument.

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Giving facts. Hardly, your argument is based on an unsupported claim, namely that the prophet committed a word from his prophecy, and then you go so far as to declare what this word is, and thing that that somehow proves your point. Now that is what is known as begging the question

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Again I am not simply offering speculation beased on what I owuld like to be the case. All I offered was a reasonable possiblity - better than any of the alternatives you have offered.. And your summary ignores - yet again - the other lines of evidence, which you have not yet answered.

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I have shown why you are obviously lying here.

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By which you mean that you call me a liar because you can't refute my arguments.

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Your so called entirely plausible suggestion is not based on any evidence but on wishful thinking,

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"last Friday of the month" is a meaningful phrase as we both know. There is other evidence that TB Joshua meant the 24th. Thuis it is a reasonable suggestion.

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"Friday of the month" could mean the "22th Friday of the May month"

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That would be an unusal phrase in English, it requires missing more elements. And it seems that Joshua did NOT know in advance that the crash would be on the 22nd May - since if he did he should have mentioned it again on the preceding Sunday (and if he did, you did not mention it).

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I'm sick of your little word games frankly; do you think i'm an idiot

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I shall restrict myself to pointing out that this is another false accusation.

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I gave more reasons. please read my posts in their entirety and not in bits and pieces. If you had read my post you would have sen that I give other evidence, word-for-word point out why my evidence doesn't make the cut.

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You gave no other evidence why it is unreasonable to think that Joshua may have meant the "last Friday of the month"

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show that I have failed to connect it to my conclusion, if he uses the same kind og\f wording more than once than he probably does it on purpose. show that this is possible. And why it is irrational.

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Err, it is up to you to supply the connection. Simply using a similar but different phrase occasionaly (which may also be a mistake) is hardly significant evidence. (The more so since you say that he meant a specific date - there is only one Friday in a week but at least 4 in a month. Which of these Fridays would "Friday of the month" mean and why ?)

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Again claims don't equal proofs. you have done more than offer a reasonable possibility you are adamant that it is the only possibility.

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You are misrepresenting my position. All I say about the choice of "last" is that is is a plausible possibility. I use other evidence to conclude that Joshua meant 24th April. If you disagree review my posts.

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And what have I ignored please be specific

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I gave a list of evidence in Message 48You have only attempted to answer the last two.

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No it isn't, again you are neglecting the fact that this isn't an Englishman

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No, I am not ignoring it. He is still speaking English and in the absence of any evidence that the phrase is used in Nigeria - and you have yet to offer any - the fact that it is unusual counts as evidence. As I say, if it really is a valid phrase all you have to do is offer the evidence.

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Please don't ignore the rest of my post answer it. your lack of reply to my post is indicative of your inability to answer it.

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If there is any important point I missed, please feel free to raise it again. I will answer it.However, given your statement, I feel free to assume that YOU are unable to address the points in my post that YOU did not answer.

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Yes he did this in his first prophecy he asked people to pray on 24 April, he didn't say the prophecy would be fulfilled on that day, he just asked his congregation to pray on that date. So I don't know what your point is with this one. But I'm sure its not evidence for anything.

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In other words you don't understand the point. Why ask them to pray on a specific day = and only ON A SPECIFIC DAY unless that were the day of the crash ?

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This isn't really an argument, he had already repeated the warning once plus his repetition of the prophecy was clear enough that a family would enter a plane and the plane would crash, therefore the prophecy in itself doubled up as a warning, and any family that was planning to go into a plane of late specifically on a Friday, and heard the prophecy would have thought twice before getting into a plane on a Friday. So there was no need for TB Joshua to explicitly give a warning since the prophecy in itself was a warning. Therefore this doesn't serve as evidence for your argument.

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If TB Joshua had known that the crash would happen on the 22nd May that in itself WOULD be a good reason to repeat the warning on the 17th May. It would remind people of the warning (given a month earlier) and reinforce it for the very day the crash was due to happen !

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whichever ever one it means, that's not important because according to you adding a specific date would be begging the question and create an implausible argument, here are your exact words concerning this:

The idea that Joshua meant to give a specific date rather than something like "last" or "fourth" is implausible.

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You aren't paying attention to the context again. That was said in discussing the exact words Joshua might have MEANT to say. So, I said that it is implausible that TB Joshua meant to SAY a specific date - rather than something like "last" of "fourth" and you take that as meaning that he could not have meant to say "last" or "fourth" because they are (IN CONTEXT) references to a specific date...
The obvious contradiction in your reading should have been a warning that you had got something wrong.Also, I did not say that "giving a specific date" would be question-begging (arguing that he meant 22nd May BECAUSE the crash happened on the 22nd May IS question-begging !)As for your reply:

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I'm sick of your little word games frankly; do you think i'm an idiot , your date is just as specific as mine, when you say last Friday of the month, you are referring to the 24th of May, aren't you, that's the date you have been arguing for all along, right. So your addition also results in a specific date, therefore by your own admission, since you end up giving specific date your argument is implausible.

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Don't you think that you should have actually understood what I was saying in context before indulging youerself in a nasty little rant ?Edited to address the point Cedre added after I started to reply:

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finally I have another suggestion, "Friday of the month" could also supposed to have said, (if something in fact was omitted) as "On a Friday of the next month" this is sounder English, and it is supported further by the fact that the crash did happen on a Friday of the next month.

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Again this requires a much larger error than omitting a single word. It also contradicts your claim that "Friday of the month" referred to a specific day. And if the only "evidence" that he meant that is the fact that the crash happened on a Friday of the next month you are begging the question AGAIN.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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Hahaha, God isn't limited by time, it doesn't matter on what date the prayer was held

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I didn't say that God was limited by time. And I am not the one who asked for prayers to be said on a specific day - that was TB Joshua.

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If you want to go into a discussion of what was the point of praying on any other day other than the day of the accident, we would begin speculating again. From the relevant passage its clear that 24 April was only the day on which the prayer was to be held, there is no indication in that passage that suggests that that was the day on which the prophecy would be fulfilled.

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As I have shown there are a number of indications that the 24th April was the intended day. And the choice of the day for prayers to be said is one. Simply suggesting that there might be other reasons does not negate it as evidence.

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This isn't a valid argument because like I already said the prophecy in itself is a warning and any family that was planning to travel during that time would perceive if it as a warning. There is no need for him to be explicit. The prophecy serves as a warning it is saying what will happen if you board a claim on a Friday. The fact is there is nothing in there, in the statement that suggests that the thing had already happened.

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In other words you simply ASSUME that a reminder and reinforcement FOR THE VERY DAY THAT THE CRASH WILL HAPPEN is not a good idea. But you don't give any reason why.

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Haha I think your ditching your former meaning because you know you made a blunder, lets take a look at what you said:

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The idea that Joshua meant to give a specific date rather than something like "last" or "fourth" is implausible.

What could this statement possibly mean apart from what it says, its clear, and basic English that you have used.

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Isn't it interesting how I tell you that you are ignoring the context - and you ignore the context again. And you say it is clear English - and ignore the fact that your reading makes it horribly unclear. My explanation - unlike tyour "clear" reading does NOT involve contradictions.For the record, here is the point I was arguing against from Message 76: You were arguing that when Joshua said "Friday of the Month" he might have meant to say "22th Friday of the May month".

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arguing that he didn't meant 22nd May BECAUSE the crash happened on the 22nd May IS also question-begging !

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Indeed it would be. However I have not made that argument. You, on the other hand, have more than once argued that the fact that the crash happened on the 22nd of May IS a reason to think that Joshua meant 22nd May !Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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So far TB Joshua has not had one unfulfilled prophecy, and all of them were fulfilled within short amounts of time. Some just a few days difference like two or three days, one in fact happened on the same day it as prophesied.

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If you beleived that you would have had no problem taking up my challenge issued at the start of the thread.You refused, point-blank.

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Like I showed in my previous post that you sloppily ran through, because if you had read I pointed out why the day of prayer means nothing as far as Christianity is concerned only Muslims and possibly other religions have stimulated prayer times. As for Christianity a prayer is all the same effective whether done on a Monday or a Friday. Therefore your use of the day of prayer as evidence fails because the time of prayer is irrelevant in Christianity. and also the textual evidence only suggests that TB Joshua appointed 24 April as the day of prayer not the day on which the prophecy would unfold.

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You fail to address my rebuttal. TB Joshua was the one who said to pray on a specific day - not me. He felt that it was somehow important to pray on that day rather than another. THAT is my point !

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You have no evidence. i took your little argument it reaped it to shreds. If you missed where I have done this please read all my previous replies to you.

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I have read them, and no, you have not shredded my argument.Even worse for you the evidence of editing in the video produced by Modulous suggests that the transcription omits words too, without giving any indication that this has been done.

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Why do you keep assuming that TB Joshua knew the very day of the crash

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I DON'T assume that. Although you have done so, quite frequently.

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He probably didn't know the exact date that tragedy would happen, and there is no evidence that he did know this data, thus your argument fails, here even before it can take off.

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You were the one who said that "Friday of the Month" indicated a specific day. And that there will be a family killed in a jet crash on some Friday at some time is, sadly, an inevitability.

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He could also have meant "on a Friday of the next month" I'm only speculating.

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That would be more plausible, although it goes against your idea that he meant a specific day - and simply speculating that he might have been right is not proof that he was right (remember you are the one claiming to have proof of the supernatural - I don't have to prove that he was definitely wrong, all I haver to do is show that there is reasonable doubt).However, now that we have evidence suggesting that there were preceding words - omitted from the publically available video AND the transcription - it seems likely that the missing word or words WERE spoken and preceded "Friday of the month".

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Remember earlier I said that its possible that TB Joshua might not have known the actual date of the prophecy's fulfillment only that it was a Friday, so if he did honestly think it was the 24th April(there is nothing that suggests that he thought this was the day by the way), that doesn't mean his prophecy was mistaken, no it means he wasn't sure if it was that Friday or the next.

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As I have already shown there are several reasons to think that he did mean 24th April. And "a Friday" is very unimpressive..Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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I'm tired of responding to the same old rehashed and tired out arguments that you keep on presenting as some kind of support for your claims. Non of them impress me, and After this response I'm not going to respond to them again

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That's because you can't answer my points adequately.

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I did not fail I addressed each and every point you made, on the other hand you have so nicely avoided many of the points I raised in my posts, a dumb thing on your part as it indicates that you cannot answer them.

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I offered to address any important point that I had missed, if you brought it to my attention. You didn't take me up on the offer.

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About the day, I already said I'm not going to speculate about it, I gave a very good reason as to why dates don't matter for Christians as gar as praying is concerned. We serve a God who can effectively answer a prayer on any day. You may claim that I'm not answering your post but claiming it doesn't prove anything until you show me how I haven't answered your posts.

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You keep ignoring the fact that it was TB Joshua who asked for prayer on that specific day. The date mattered enough to him to specify it.

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You obviously will not admit it here, but aside you know that your so-called arguments are really not arguments just guesswork, all of it, adding words, presuming to claim what the prophet meant etc. You got nothing, and I know by now that you will refute this but anyone who has read our chat thus far will agree with me here.

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I won't admit it because it isn't true.

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That is a streamed clip, I won't take it seriously until I get to see the original. And Like I said Many people want to see the downfall of this man, and would have spoken up by now if anything was editted out. I don't believe this I know it, thousands of people in attendance and other thousands watching, it would be impossible that they would not point out something like this. If people have such incriminating evidence as this against the prophet then why on earth do they continue to pledge their money into his ministry.

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Given that we have zero evidence of this supposed skeptical oversight I have my doubts.

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I only said that to counter your inclusion of the word last in the phrase. it never made up my original argument, read my first few posts and you will see this.

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If we read your first few posts you will see that this is NOT true.
You said it in message 9 Message 9 answering Caffeine. I suggested that he might have meant the last Friday of the month in message 31 Message 31.

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I tackled each one of those reasons and they are not good reasons they are based on speculation, adding words, presuming things you cannot possibly know.

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No, none of the reasons are based on any of those things.

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I'm not going to deal with this prophecy again, You could falsify it, and it stands as a fulfilled prophecy. In getting the day right the type of plane right and the kind of family right but most importantly the short period of time that elapsed between the prophecy and its fulfillment. You are in DENIAL of the clear evidence that establishes the supernatural realm.

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The day of the week and the "type" of plane were clearly not very specific. Wait long enough and it WILL happen. Given also that there is evidence that he predicted the wrong date, and grounds for suspicion that the video has been edited to conceal this fact it the prediction is rather less impressive than you claim.

On the last, he mistyped - he meant 24th April. There's a lot wrong in his arguments but that is a trivial error.