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Author Topic:   Giant People in the bible?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 281 of 352 (526643)
09-28-2009 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by John Williams
09-28-2009 9:41 PM


Re: Giants??
I think that finding parts of the humerus, tibia and femur would be an even better indication for how big Giganto was.
For all we know Giganto could have been this 5 foot tall Ape with a head 4 times too large.
Long bones are nice for estimating stature.
But if you don't have long bones, it is safe to assume that a critter with a mandible about twice human size in all dimensions would be pretty large in any case.
And scientists work from the known to the unknown. Until there is a primate of some kind found with a cranium four times too large for the rest of the bones, scientists will assume the normal size, in relation to the bones which are known, to be a more accurate estimate.
We're picky that way.
So, unless you have some evidence for those "giants" I will continue to regard them as a myth. (Kind of like the Jolly Green Giant--very well known but entirely fictional).
To progress beyond "fictional" just produce a nice pile of bones. We'll do the rest.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by John Williams, posted 09-28-2009 9:41 PM John Williams has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by John Williams, posted 09-29-2009 1:31 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 286 of 352 (530707)
10-14-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Calypsis4
10-14-2009 2:44 PM


Need I say more?
Need I say more?
You haven't said anything yet, you've just posted a bunch of pictures.
Why don't you try providing some real evidence for a change?
And Ancient American? I've been doing archaeology in North America for nearly 40 years and I've never heard of that magazine. Sounds like its way out on the fringe, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Calypsis4, posted 10-14-2009 2:44 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Calypsis4, posted 10-14-2009 3:26 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 292 of 352 (532713)
10-25-2009 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by John Williams
10-25-2009 10:19 PM


Re: Pics of giants
And genetic heights of 8 feet or more have been reported for some individuals among the Dinka and Watutsi in Africa.
Of course Bigfoot is usually claimed to be eight foot or more in height, as well as of robust build.
Maybe that's what the early bible authors were describing. What do you think?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by John Williams, posted 10-25-2009 10:19 PM John Williams has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Calypsis4, posted 10-26-2009 8:43 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 296 of 352 (532854)
10-26-2009 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by John Williams
10-26-2009 10:30 PM


Re: Pics of giants
All of these giant skeletons, from relatively recent excavations at Lovelock Cave. Lots of tall tales (if you'll pardon the pun).
Where are the bones?
Have they been studied recently?
Are they available currently for study?
It should be very easy to reexamine those skeletons using modern techniques and determine, using current regression formulas, just what their height was (those formulas weren't available in the early decades of the last century).
So where are the bones?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by John Williams, posted 10-26-2009 10:30 PM John Williams has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Calypsis4, posted 10-27-2009 12:08 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 299 of 352 (532864)
10-27-2009 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Calypsis4
10-27-2009 12:08 AM


Re: Pics of giants
All of these giant skeletons, from relatively recent excavations at Lovelock Cave. Lots of tall tales (if you'll pardon the pun).
Not surprising that such a statement would come from one who lives his life in lies.
But those photographs of John Aason (9'2), Petrussen (8'8), and Robert Wadlow (8'11) were no lie.
The claim was for a number of relatively recent skeletons from the Lovelock Cave area.
That should be very easy to back up!
So where are the bones? And where are the recent studies using the recent regression formulas that were not available in the early part of the last century?
Or are all of these early skeletal claims now somehow lost? Now that's convenient!
And knock off the "lies" stuff. That does your cause no good whatsoever, but it does make you appear rather pathetic.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Calypsis4, posted 10-27-2009 12:08 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by John Williams, posted 10-27-2009 9:45 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 310 of 352 (532993)
10-27-2009 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by John Williams
10-27-2009 9:45 PM


Bones of giants
A study was conducted in 1976 by the University of Nevada and the Nevada State Museum which re-examined a box of bones found by the amateur archaeologist John T. Reid near Lovelock Cave. Reid had calculated that some of these people were giants, but Dr. Sheilagh Brooks, chair woman of the anthropology department at UN-Las Vegas said that her initial investigation indicated some of the bones were from "cows", and those which were human indicated people of approximately "6 feet tall."
This is often the case with stories of fabled skeletons when they are examined by experts (such as Dr. Brooks).
I too have heard of other extremely large individuals in central Nevada, but have never seen any of these reports confirmed by an expert, nor have I encountered any of those skeletons in my own research.
You might inquire of Dr. David Hurst Thomas at the American Museum of Natural History, New York. He did a lot of work in the Lovelock Cave area and might be able to shed some light on the subject.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by John Williams, posted 10-27-2009 9:45 PM John Williams has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 319 of 352 (533249)
10-29-2009 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Calypsis4
10-29-2009 1:36 PM


Re: 7 to 9 feet tall is not the issue
Contrary to what Theodoric said there are scores of historical accounts of people who were 8 to 25 ft. tall. But those were before photographs could be made of them. But since photographs of giant people doesn't suffice the skeptics like Theodoric then why would we expect drawings of such things to convince them?
Claiming heights on the order of 25 feet is ludicrous.
But these kinds of claims can be documented easily: just produce the bones.
Strange though how these claims evaporate when someone either looks for the bones or examines the bones, eh? An example posted upthread consisted of cow bones and bones of normal size.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Calypsis4, posted 10-29-2009 1:36 PM Calypsis4 has replied

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 Message 321 by Calypsis4, posted 10-29-2009 2:33 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 330 of 352 (533265)
10-29-2009 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Calypsis4
10-29-2009 3:04 PM


Re: 7 to 9 feet tall is not the issue
The 'subject' has been covered.
Stop nit-picking at me. ...
We've covered the bases here.
We have, you haven't. In your usual hit and run posting style you have produced a lot of assertions with virtually no evidence. And, as usual, you react to any corrections or refutations of your claims with derision and name calling, and revert to quoting scripture, as if that were scientific evidence.
If you won't believe the testimony of God's Word about historical fact then you won't believe any other fact that goes contrary to your ridiculous position of denial.
We follow the evidence, not unsubstantiated ancient writings. And you have no evidence of 25-foot tall humans, nor anything even close.
You prove over and over that you have no real evidence, and that you are not really interested in debating. Instead, your goal here seems to be preaching.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Calypsis4, posted 10-29-2009 3:04 PM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 335 of 352 (533303)
10-29-2009 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by John Williams
10-29-2009 10:18 PM


Re: Physical limits of human stature
I agree that claiming giants up to 25 feet tall is a pretty outrageous allegation. And bio physically absurd.
Correct. And that applies to anything over about 8 or 9 feet as well. The cube/square rules show that ramping up an individual that averages somewhat under 6 feet to 8 or 9 feet results in significant problems in a number of areas, particularly the ankle and knee.
At least one study which which I am familiar stems from examination of Bigfoot prints, and shows that a lot of them can be demonstrated to be frauds because they simply enlarge a normal human foot to Bigfoot size. This is a sure sign of fraud, as the bone and soft tissues would have to be significantly different from a normal human foot to support a critter of that size and weight. One example: the human ankle is close to the rear of the foot. In a critter much heavier that joint needs to be located closer to the center of the foot because the stress on the Achilles tendon becomes too great for the strength of the tissues.
The vast majority of the reported "giant skeletons" in more modern times (1850-1950) or the encounters with living giants, have usually ranged in height from 7-9 feet, with some reported at 10-12.
And most have documented medical problems, along with problems with normal locomotion. How many could carry heavy weapons and still be effective in early warfare?
I have already mentioned my case concerning the find at Castelnau-Le-Lez, of human bones of twice the volume and length of normal man (5 1/2 foot man) suggesting an individual approx. eleven feet stature. And if this approximation is correct, I don't think we can rule out 10 to 12 feet as a possibility for the human species.
If I remember from upthread this was from back in the late 1800s and the bones are not currently available for study.
It should be noted that physicians in the 1800s were notoriously poor at identifying unusual bones. The literature is full of misidentifications and other boo-boos. They had little training in "bare" bones, and no X-rays to work with. There was only a limited science of osteology at that time, and physicians were not generally trained in it. The regression formulas to establish height from long bones were not well developed until the early 1950s (Trotter & Glesser 1952). Physicians saw live patients, not loose bones, and they certainly had little to no training in non-human bones. Finally, physicians in the 1800s were often the best educated individuals in a small town, and were relied upon to look at strange findings, but that isn't saying much.
It should be noted, that the physicians who had known Wallow all his life had predicted that he would surpass 9 feet at age 22. He was 22.4 when he died and 8 feet 11.1 inches. Surprisingly, he was still growing at a rate of 2-3 inches per year and his bones had not fused. So Wadlow's case still leaves open the question... How much taller could he have grown?
From Wiki:
quote:
On July 4, 1940, while making a professional appearance at the National Forest Festival, a faulty brace irritated his ankle, causing a blister and subsequent infection. Doctors treated him with a blood transfusion and emergency surgery, but his condition worsened and on July 15, 1940, he died in his sleep. He was 22.
An individual of this stature, with these medical conditions, is not likely to have become a warrior carrying heavy armor and weapons. It looks like he needed braces of some kind just to get around and died at a very young age.
The sum of all of the "evidence" posted on this thread for giants in biblical times is pathetic. We have a number of medically-challenged individuals of that stature in recent history, but we don't have suitable collections of bones showing giants in the past.
What we most likely had was tall tales (sorry about the pun--but not very!).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by John Williams, posted 10-29-2009 10:18 PM John Williams has not replied

  
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