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Member (Idle past 4959 days)  Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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| Author | Topic: Is Jesus God? | |||||||||||||||||||
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Porphyry was right to oppose 3rd century chrisitanity because it was false. It had deviated away from what was written in the writings of the Apostles. He was able to determine this, why cant you? If over 90% of mainstream Christianity and the earliest Church was and are mistaken on this matter and Porpus was correct, would you care to give us a run down of the other things he believed concerning Christianity. Lets see what other things you believe he got correct I cant determine it because it makes little or no sense to go against the Apostles very simple language that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but he emptied himself and took on the form of a servant. Peg, the only reason I believe this is that it is so plainly and directly stated, so that someone even as simple as myself cant miss it. I wouldnt believe that it is necessary to be baptized if it were not so simply and clearly stated, it to easy to miss
that depends on what he was objecting to. If he was objecting to ideas that did not originate in the scriptures, then yes, we should accept them. If he was objecting to the reality of Christ, then no, we would reject that. You telling me that we should trust a man that does not believe in the reality of Christ, his death burial and ressurection, then believe him about some other point of doctrine, that even Christians argue about. His judgement would be worthless and nonsense. Its like the fellows here wishing to discuss Bible doctrines and at the same time admittedly rejecting his exsistence, inspiration and intervention. Of what value is it to a Biblical discussion
how can you say its insignificant? The fact is that the God whom Jesus was leading people to, is almost unknown today. This is thanks to the churchs and their false teachings that Jesus himself is this God. You know who I"m talking about...the God of the Old Testament Jehovah. Jehovah is the one whom we should be worshiping but christians dont even know who he is. And the work that Jesus did in 'making known the name of God' and in his sacrifice he gave so that all people can come to be in a relationship with Jehovah has fallen on deaf ears because the churchs' have removed the name of Jehovah from their bibles and deliberately elevated Jesus above Jehovah. If its Jehovah who we are supposed to be relying on for salvation, then there are a lot of people in a very bad position before God. 1 Tim. 2:3-6 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all. No No Peg I was not saying the doctrine was insignifICANT . I was saying that that those that believe that Jesus was and is not God, that following are relative insignificant AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. The reason that so many believe that Jesus is God is that it is simply to easy to miss
And the work that Jesus did in 'making known the name of God' and in his sacrifice he gave so that all people can come to be in a relationship with Jehovah has fallen on deaf ears because the churchs' have removed the name of Jehovah from their bibles and deliberately elevated Jesus above Jehovah. But from our perspective we are worshipping God Peg, by worshipping Christ, because he was Immanuel Teach us to pray"Our father who art in heaven, holy is your name" Why would you think we dont worship God or his name. Worshipping Christ is the same as worshipping God and his name Peg, he is immanuel.
His claim about Christ NOT being Amighty God is true. Nowhere in the NT do the writers ever say that Jesus is Jehovah. Nowhere does Jesus claim to be equal to God. True, because Jesus is his name as a Son of God, it should be distinquished from the the overall title or name for God before the incarnation. Since there was no Jesus in realationship to God before the incarnation, there is no reason to call Jesus by the Jehovah, when refering to him here on earth. He was in a servant state as Jesus, not stricly Jehovah but still the God that is designated as Jehovah There is reason however to refer to Jesus as Lord or God, because in total essence that is what and who he was, as the Apostle unmistakenly indicates in the simplest of terms. here is a question. What other verbage could the Apostle have used to indicate that Jesus was God and was equal to God other than to directly state that in no uncertain terms. you provide me with another term to show equality better than equal.
People are not stupid...even people who are not followers of christ can see falsehoods and can put two and two together. You really have to give the man some credit for making an informed effort and not simply making claims that were not based on scripture. Yeah your right, people are not stupid but they can be blind. I give him no credit and no credence if he rejected the reality of Christianity, and neither should you Peg thing about it. He rejected the reality of Christianity and its teachings, therre is no reason to believe he got this one right either, even if yoiu disagree with me. He didnt get it right because he didnt seriously examine the scriptures on this point or anyother no doubt. here is an example from Wiki Against the Christians (Adversus Christianos) Of his Adversus Christianos (Against the Christians) in fifteen books, only fragments remain, as quotations adduced in order to be refuted.[14][15] In it, he famously is quoted as having said, "The Gods have proclaimed Christ to have been most pious, but the Christians are a confused and vicious sect." Counter-treatises were written by Eusebius of Caesarea, Apollinaris of Laodicea, Methodius of Olympus, and Macarius of Magnesia, but all these are lost. His implication here is that Christ nor his followers were really pious because they were confused and vicious. Now how could he have come to such a conclusion studying Jesus or Pauls words. It appears he would mess up a free lunch, even as a Philosopher Sorry peg if he can mess up such a simple thing as this I cant trust his judgement ESPECIALLY on the nature of Christ . But hey, if Porpus works for you grab onEAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
im not going to discuss all of his contentions, that wasnt the point of this line of reasoning. A couple would be sufficient I thought as much. The reason you wont discuss them is because you know he was so far off base he is not to be believed concerning most anything connected with Christianity You never explained how according to him, Christ, and Christians were unpious, confused and vicious
the KJV reads: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. the JB says: he did not cling to his equality with God. I guess you knew where I was going to go with this, so Ill make it even simpler. Take a look at the two versions above and tell me what each one is saying, even the causal reader cannot mistake what is being taught. Either the Apostle was completley uninformed, CONFUSED, lying or he was guided by the Holy Spirit. I asked you to give me another word that the Apostle could have used and how could he have put it in anyother way, to say exacally what the verses above say, WITHOUT MISTAKE. Tell me what they would be Peg Only with the greatest amount of twisting and manuvering can one come up with your following analysis and explanation. Paul is not saying anything close to what you are trying to imply. Lets look
Now go back and look at the context. Verse 5 tells Christians to imitate Jesus in the subject being discussed. Were they being urged to consider it not robbery, but their right, to be equal with God? No way! Yet that is what you are saying is being told to christians, that we should imitate christ and not consider it robbery that we are equal with God. What John was really saying to christians was to imitate Jesus who emptied himself and took a slave’s form because he DID NOT consider himself equal with God. and this is in harmony with Jesus own words at John 14:28 The Father is greater than I.He did not believe he was equal with God at all. No where in this passage is the Apostle suggesting, indicating or implying that Christians should NOT consider themselves equal with God, because there IS some fear on the Apostles part that they may indeed think that. This is simply a bit of manuvering on your part to ignore the force of the statemnet by the Apostle. The grammatical construction of the verse does not even allow such a ridiculous conclusion, with which you are charging me. Actually just the opposite of what you said is the truth. Watch this, he says Even though Jesus IS EQUAL to God, he DID NOT consider it a thing to be GRASPED (not grasped at, as you suggest), but emptied himself of that status to take on the form of a servant. Equality means equality. there are no other words he could have used to make the meaning more of the meaning. if there are then simply provide them No Jew of that day would have considered themselves equal to God, therefore there would be no need to warn them against it.Pauls estimation would however make perfect sense, if as he indicates Jesus being on an equlity with God, was not something to be held on to, but extreme humility demanded otherwise. and this is in harmony with Jesus own words at John 14:28 The Father is greater than I. He did not believe he was equal with God at all. As a servant living as a human being and putting aside his deity in its absoluteness, BEING BORN AS A human son, meant living as a human being, which would mean in this state he was less than the father. A term that has no meaning before the incarnation, because there is simply God, EQUAL IN AL ITS PARTS. "He was MADE alittle lower than the angels" You simply cannot excape the fact Peg that verses have priorities, they help explain other verses. if there were not other verses making it abundantly clear that Jesus is God, you may be correct about the above quote. But there are other verses and your conclusion, not to mention your analysis of Philipians, is not to be believed even by a fifth grader. The versions you quoted dont even support your contention
the identity of Jesus as Immanuel did not mean he was the incarnation of God. It was a prophetic name that would identify him as the messiah. You may recall that the Messiah was also to be called by other names such as at Isaiah 9:6 His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Yet none of these names were given to Jesus as personal names, they were all prophetic title-names by which Messiah would be identified its the same with emmanuel... it represented Gods attention would be on his people again, which it was - thru Jesus. Then, just when I think your reasoning abilities and exegesis can get no worse, Bam, you surprise me again here is a test for you peg, go through the New Testament and see if you cannot find each one of the discriptions in Isa, not in the New testament. Here is an example Isa, Eternal fatherNT, "Before Abraham was IAM Isa, Mighty GodN.T. "In him dwelt all the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily. that is in his body he was still fully God, except for WILLINGLY becoming a servant, which has to do with ATTITUDE, not stricly essence NT, "he thought it not robbery to be equal with God, he did not think it a thing to be HELD ON TO, he put it aside", so to speak this according to any reliable translation
show me the scriptures that specifically claim Jesus was an incarnation of God. Ill ask you the question again, please provide me with another word, phrase, concept or idea that would make Plilipians any simpler or make equal not equal, other than you clear rearranging of the Apostles words Had the Jews been in Pauls presence when he spoke or wrote these words, he would have been a dead man, had the Lord chose not to intervine, had this actually been spoken in thier presence. Remember Peg Pauls words are Christs words. "Do not concern yourself about what to say when you are brought before kings and rulers, it will be given to you in that hour"
even the idea of the 'god-man' did not become teaching until some three hundred years after Jesus’ day and not properly defined until A.D. 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. Its another NON BIBLICAL idea from the man of lawlessness. You are way to good a bible teacher in most areas Peg to know this is a flat misrepresentation of the facts of Church history. i have already and i will not address it again, about what MOST of the earliest followers accept as truth in this area. Shame on you here you say it did not even becaome a teaching until whenever, earlier you have Paul teaching people that Christ is not God. Why would he need to make them aware of something they were not even considering in the first place. Couldnt he just have said Jesus who was before any man humbled himself and become a servant. No Peg Pauls verbage and intimation and direct statement is not to be missed Some interesting side notes in the same vein and with regard to the same subject Is Jesus Really Michael the Archangel? - Apologetics Press 'Is Jesus really Michael the Archangel?'by Eric Lyon "Michael the archangel is mentioned only five times in the Bible (Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; Jude 9; Revelation 12:7), and yet never do these passages indicate that he is to be equated with the preincarnate Christ, nor with the ascended Jesus. First Thessalonians 4:16 also alludes to an archangel, and, although the name Michael is not mentioned, this is the passage Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently cite as proof of Jesus being the archangel. Concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Paul wrote: For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (emp. added). Supposedly, since Jesus is described as descending from heaven with the voice of an archangel, then He must be the archangel Michael. However, this verse does not teach that Jesus is an archangel, but that at His Second Coming He will be accompanied with the voice of an archangel. Just as He will be attended with a shout and with the trumpet of God, so will He be accompanied with the voice of an archangel. Question: If Jesus’ descension from heaven with the voice of an archangel makes Him (as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim) the archangel Michael, then does His descent with the trumpet of God not also make Him God? Jehovah’s Witnesses reject this latter conclusion, yet they accept the first. Such inconsistency is one proof of their erroneous teachings about Jesus. One of the strongest arguments against Jesus being an angel is found in the book of Hebrews. In chapter one, the writer of Hebrews showed the superiority of Jesus over the angelic beings, and contrasted Him with them. For to which of the angels did He ever say: You are My Son, today I have begotten You? And again: I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: Let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He says: Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. But to the Son He says: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions. And: You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail. But to which of the angels has He ever said: Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool? (1:5-13). Jesus’ superiority over the angels is seen in the fact that the Father spoke to Jesus as His special begotten Son to Whom He gave the seat of honor at His right hand (1:5,13). Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews indicated that God commanded all angels to worship Jesus (1:6; cf. Revelation 5:11-13; Philippians 2:10). Yet, if Jesus were an angel, how could He accept the worship of other lesser angels when, according to Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, angels do not accept worship, but rather preach the worship of God, and no other? Hebrews chapter one is a death knell to the idea of Jesus, the Son of God, being Michael, the archangel. Interestingly, Charles Taze Russell, the founder of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, admitted such when he stated in The Watchtower magazine near the end of its inaugural year: Hence it is said, ‘let all the angels of God worship him’: (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God) (1879, p. 4, emp. added). Sadly, even though Russell (the Society’s president for over 30 years) rejected the idea of Jesus being Michael the archangel, Jehovah’s Witnesses today hold firmly to this doctrine. The writer of Hebrews returned to the subject of Jesus’ superiority over angels in chapter two, saying, He [God] has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels (2:5). To whom will the world be in subjection? Scripture indicates that it would be Jesus, the appointed heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2). All authority has been given, not to any angel, but to Jesus (Matthew 28:18). All angels, authorities, and powers have been made subject to Him (1 Peter 3:22). In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him (Hebrews 2:8, NIV, emp. added). Jesus, therefore, is not Michael, the archangel, for it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come (Hebrews 2:5, RSV). One final proof that Jesus is not Michael the archangel actually comes from one of the five passages in which Michael’s name is found in ScriptureJude 9. According to Jude: Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’ Whereas Michael would not dare pronounce a railing judgment against the devil (cf. 2 Peter 2:11), Jesus once declared about Satan: He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it (John 8:44). Jesus did not approach the subject of rebuking Satan with the same hesitation as godly angels like Michael. Jesus, as Lord of heaven and Earth (Matthew 28:18), boldly called the devil a murderer and liar, and even went so far as to declare that there is no truth in him. The Son of God obviously is not Michael the archangel. I find it extremely puzzling how Jehovah’s Witnesses can conclude that there is no biblical proof of Jesus being deity, and yet at the same time allege that [t]here is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return (Watchtower, 1969, p. 307, emp. added). Where is the evidence? There is none. Jesus is not Michael the archangel; rather, He is exactly Who the apostle John said He was (John 1:1,14), Who Thomas said He was (John 20:28), and even Who His enemies accused Him of making Himself (John 5:18; 10:33). Jesus is God!" This seems pretty self-explanatory from a scriptural position Is your intimation here about the man of lawlessness an indication you are willing to contie our discussion of sin in another thread, as well?
and just think about this...if Jesus was an incarnation of God, there would have been no need for him to be born from Mary. None whatsoever. WHY? EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
EMA writes: No where in this passage is the Apostle suggesting, indicating or implying that Christians should NOT consider themselves equal with God Peg writes;So we should consider ourselves equal to God too? Really??? are you sure? Yeah Yeah, that was a mis statement by myself. Your are very aware that I meant, No where in the passage is the Apostle suggesting that we are equal to God, no where in the pasage is he indicating that it is necessary to demonstrate humility, by indicating we should not compare ourselves to God. it wwould be pointless to such since everyone was aware of this in the first place Nor was in necessary for the Apostle to tell everyone that Jesus wasnt equal to God to demonstrate his humility, because if he wasnt God as you suggest and this was the thinking at that time, it would not be necessary to reference that fact. it would make no sense to do that , correct?
Really??? are you sure? yes I am absolutely sure we are not equal to God. But I am absolutley positive Jesus is equal to God. isnt it interesting that you cant find a translation that says what you are twisting it to indicate
thats where you are wrong...the verse does not say Jesus was equal with God, it says 'even though he existed in Gods form...he did not consider equality as something to be grasped' This is simply another slick manever to resist the force of the passage. No where else in scripture does it state or indicate that Man or Angel are equal to God in any Form, shape or fashion As a matter of fact it is very easy to see from the rest of scripture exacally what the Apostle means in this passage. lets take a tour of the passages concerning God and Christ and see if we see any comparisons , that would be EXCLUSIVE TO CHRIST and that would exclude Man or Angel We have already done this with Michael, so lets look at the rest
Jesus is God by Matt Slick "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me," (Isaiah 43:10). JESUSIS GOD, "YAHWEH" John 1:3, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."Col. 1:16-17, "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Creator Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Isaiah 40:28, "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom." Rev. 1:17, "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’" Rev. 2:8, "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again." Rev. 22:13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." First and Last Isaiah 41:4, "Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD -- with the first of them and with the last -- I am he." Isaiah 44:6, "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 48:12, "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last." John 8:24, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV) John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" See Exodus 3:14 John 13:19, "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He." I AM "ego eimi"Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’" Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." See also Deut. 32:39 2 Tim. 4:1, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..." 2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Judge Joel 3:12, "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." Rom. 14:10, "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat." Matt. 2:2, "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him." Luke 23:3, "So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied." See also John 19:21 King Jer. 10:10, "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath." Isaiah 44:6-8, "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Psalm 47 John 8:12,"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." Luke 2:32, "a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel." See also John 1:7-9 Light Psalm 27:1, "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?" Isaiah 60:20 ,"our sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end." 1 John 1:5, "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." 1 Cor. 10:4, "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." See also 1 Pet. 2:4-8. Rock Deut. 32:4, "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he." See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10. John 4:42, "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’" 1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." Savior Isaiah 43:3, "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior" Isaiah 45:21, "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me." John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Heb. 13:20, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep," See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25 Shepherd Psalm 23:1, "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want." Isaiah 40:11, "He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young." Unless otherwise noted, all quotations are from the NASB Now isnt this interesting, there is not one single point about the nature of God himself that cannot also be attributed to Jesus Christ. Except those that have to do with his servant state Now in honesty Peg can we take the same book and do this with any human being or any of the millions of angels, as you suggest have the form of God? I doubt it the form and equality spoken of in Philipians goes way past spirit material or spiritual existence as you can plainly see. If this is all there were to Christ you may have had a point. That is not Pauls or the rest of the NTs point, exclusivelywe cant just take the verses that suit our purposes peg EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
So lets say that Jesus was equal to God, then he must have known that he was equal to God, right? And as Jesus was the one giving Paul his words to write, and as you say, Paul was saying that Jesus was equal to God then please explain this... right before Paul apparently tells us Jesus is equal to God, he says...Vs 5 "Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus So, what is the mental attitude Paul wants us to imitate?Is it that we are equal God because Jesus was equal to God? or is it something else you havent mentioned yet??? Let me say first, Peg from down under over at Melbourne thanks for continuing this very Biblical discussion, I think we are all enjoying it and I hope it branches into many more areas of specific beliefs Secondly, let me say that "Mental Attitude" is redundant, as all attitudes are mental
Is it that we are equal God because Jesus was equal to God? or is it something else you havent mentioned yet??? No, this is a point to demonstrate the main point, which is the point of humility in the passage. Us being unequal to God or Christ being equal to God is secondary to the point of humility, which is the main point. They are illustrations to demonstrate that point. we miss this the same way we miss the point that the parable of the prodigal son is not about the son, but God the father, waiting patiently and forgiving upon his return.
Ok, what is Gods form? It should be simple enough to see that the expressios "In the form of God" and thought it not robbery to be equal with God are excally the same. Alot of translations say "Who was in very form God", did not think "equality with God"was something to be grasped" IOW the two expressions are exacally the same and they compliment eachother, meaning the samething. Gods form is whatever God is in totality, not simply Spirit, but eternality as an example, Christ is described in Revelations, "I Am the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, the same as God in the Old Testament The point is simply that the rest of the scriptures, the ones I provided back up this point, that while all of us are created in Gods image and have a spirit, Christ MATCHES Gods nature, character and form in its totality, this is Pauls intimation and direct statement. If the rest of the scriptures did not support this fact, you may have a case, but happily they do
So God is a spirit, he is invisible to human eyes because he exists in a form that has no physical traits. Just as the angels exist in the form of spirits with no physical traits and just as some christians will be transformed into the same image. Can God not transform Himself and Angels into human form? Could God not live as a human in human form EMA writes:Now in honesty Peg can we take the same book and do this with any human being or any of the millions of angels, as you suggest have the form of God? I doubt it Peg writes: Yes we can and I just did. Whoa, I think you missed the whole point. It was not, do humans and angels have soms attributes of God, spirit etc, It was can we take the scriptures and demonstrate that humans and angels have the exact details as Christ to God Do you remember me saying that it is interesting that every characteristic attributed to God in the Old Testament is also attributed to Christ If we take all the scriptures has to say about Christ as God and man, the passages that seem ot limit his characteristics to God, then apply the ones that make him exacally like God, then we can see that those have to do with his servant state as a human "In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead while he was in his body" "I can do nothing without the father" Since the rest of the scriptures make it clear he possess all the attributes of God, his existence as a human being was RESPECTFULLY limited by he himself before his incarnation. he chose to empty himself of this status to fullfil a mission, thereby becoming an obedient servant, while maintaing his equality as God He as God, by God and for God and humanity demonstrated the GREATEST OF ALL HUMILITY EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
If paul was making a simple point about humility, why would he need to mention that Jesus 'may have been' equal to God? Peg I am assuming you are being silly here or evasive. What better way to demonstrate humility than to demonstrate that even as God he did not think equality with God was something to be grasped, but he humbled himself and took on the form of a servant Answer this simple question. What better way to demonstrate humility than the one described in this passage?
Your claim is that paul is telling christians that Jesus WAS equal to God...so tell me what Jesus attitude was? Because If Jesus attitude is that he WAS equal to God, then the whole humily argument goes out the window because humility is a recognition of ones limitations....something Jesus would not have had and therefore no need to be humble. Where did you get the silly idea that humility is ONLY a recognition of ones limitations?
No he couldnt and he even tells humans this very fact. He had to protect Moses from viewing him because no one can view God. I agreeMoses was asking to see God as God, God said no thats not possible. God appeared to Abraham numerous times in another form, and to many others In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses did not see a material form of God. Yes, he saw the afterglow of the divine presence but even from that he had to be protected. And if Jesus was God, then John must not have been an inspired writer because he certainly got this very wrong. It is absolutley true that no man can visualize God in his truest form. But it is not true that God did not manifest himself in human form many times. There is no contradiction here Again, Christ (God) set this very same glory he manifested to Moses aside to live a perfectly moral life in a human form here is an example Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin are death" this is an absolutely statement and true all the time. However cannot provisions be made to set aside temporarily the full force of the consequences, then have the affects of sin put upon someone else. The provisions dont disallow the truthfullness of the statement or the consequences, it simply makes immediate and temporary PROVISONS to allow another purpose. Provisions were made by God to allow people to see and talk with him in person. So what is so hard to believe he could live in human form EAM
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
i have to admit that im getting a little tired of going over and over this same point, so i'll make this my final comment on it. If God became visible in the flesh, then John was not an inspired writer because he said"no man has seen God at any time" Peg repeating yourself is not responding to an argument. I demonstrated that while a statement can in fact be emphatic it in no wise eliminates other possibilites Romans 6:23 is an emphatic statement, yet do you deny that provisions were made in the form of exceptions, not to circumvent the rule but to show exceptions that allow a type of deviation from the absolute rule. It is absolutely true no man has EVER seen God in his original form, but why does this exclude him appearing in another, Do you not realize that you and the earth and physical existence are a different form of God material. By what force and by what power were these things reorganized into thier present form. Since only God exists then it follows that there is only God substance and material. hence God material was reorganized (so to speak) into a form we can comprehend and behold I agree with what John said, but repeating him is not an argument. So if you are tired it must be from repeating yourself with no following argument
And finally, if Jesus was God then having an attitude that equality with himself was not something to be grasped is just a silly notion. If he was God then there would be no need to state this because it would be like me saying i dont need to be equal to myself...its rediculous. I asked you a simple question in this connection and you avoided it. What greater example OF HUMILITY could be provided than God himself setting asided his glory to live and die as a man besides this Jesus did not state this directly about himself, it was Paul demonstrating Christs humility. Of course Christ would not boast of his own humility Speaking of humility you sayI didnt say 'only'. But of all the things that humility is, a recognition of ones limitations is one of them. We are humble when we recognize our lowly position and act in accord with that position. Jesus was humble because, although he was in a powerful position, he recognized his lowly position beside his Father and accepted the work God had given him. Since this is not the only quality of humility, could you provide me some other characteristics that may discribe humility. I would say that humility is PRIMARILY an attitude of the mind, not a position of status or delegation. "Let this MIND be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" Like pray is an attitude of the Heart not a position of the body I believe as we move along here it is becoming clear that this has very little to with whether Jesus is God verses whether you think God, could and would humble himself to live as a human or whether he would manifest himself in human or angelic form if your only justification for this is Johns statement, then your positon is misguided. I would ask you to provide scripture and reason as to why he would not do this, other than your dissatifaction of it
But God himself is in the highest posiition in the universe and therefore he cannot literally be lowly before anyone. He cannot look at someone else in a higher position, so its not really possible for him to be humble in such a way. While very respectful, this is simply an opinion, not backed up by anything, except your misguided view of humility. If this is the case, why would God humble himself to created anything physical in the first place. Why would God create freewill knowing sin is a possibility. Why would God created physical things and call it GOOD? Why would God humble himself to forgive sin, certainly sin deserves punishment and why would he humble himself to let his son die in a humans stead. if God is what you imply he is, then none of these other things would be possible either.
His Son Jesus could be humble because he could look to one in a higher position to himself. Even if it was jesus decision, since God is the God of the universe, he would say, according to your argument, "You will do nothing of the sort Jesus, my Son, I will not allow it, because I am God of all the universe and I have a reputation ot uphold. Your argument concering humility does not seem to hold water Peg I dont understand this your knowledge of the scriptures is nothing short of impressive, why would you adopt some greek philosophy concering god and what he would do or not do/ EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
if God has appeared in human form, the OT should contain an account of it. If you believe that he appeard as Jesus, then why has he not appeard to Isreal in the form of a man? You wont find anywhere in the OT where he has done so. Since I never said Jesus appeared as himself in the Old testament, it would be obvious that you are putting words in my mouth. all I said is that God appeared in human form. here they are
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. Genesis 17:1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him.... Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre. Genesis 26:2And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of. Genesis 26:24And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not. Genesis 32:30And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Genesis 35:9And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him. Genesis 48:3And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan. Exodus 3:16The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you. Exodus 4:5That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee. Exodus 6:3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob.... Exodus 24:9-11Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink. Exodus 33:11And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend. Exodus 33:23And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts. Numbers 14:14For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face. Deuteronomy 5:4The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire. Deuteronomy 34:10And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face. Judges 13:22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 1 Kings 22:19I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. Job 42:5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Psalm 63.2To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary. Isaiah 6:1In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up. Isaiah 6:5For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Ezekiel 1:27And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward.... Ezekiel 20:35And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Amos 7:7The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand. Amos 9:1I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake. Habakkuk 3:3-5God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand. Matthew 18:9Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Now since it is true that no man has ever seen Gods true nature and lived, it would follow from these scriptures that he appeared in some human form at times
this thread is full of scritpures that show that Jesus is not Jehovah. it is also full of passages that ascribe to Jesus ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. A point you still not have addressed Ill try this one more time with no hope you will entertain a response. of course jesus was not Jehovah by name in a servant state, Jesus was a name given after his incarnation. He set the name Jehovah aside as a servant. he was however still God, which refers to his essence. As the scriptures make it abundantly clear that he was deity, they also make it aboundantly clear that he emptied himself of the glory, which would also include the name of Jehovah, which referred to God in heaven as a servant there would be no need for him to be called Jehovah or God, by title or name. however the scriptures make it clear that he was and is that Jehovah, precarnate., "before Abraham was, IAM", etc, etc
But it seems the scriptures are not enough for some to accept so lets go back in history to the first and 2nd century writers and find out what the earliest beliefs among early christians were before the doctrine of the trinity was introduced in the 3rd/4th century. Your kidding correct peg? Nearly every oneof these writers are advocating the trinity Watch this from tertullian"The Son is distinct from the Father, and the Spirit from both the Father and the Son (Adv. Praxeam, xxv). These three are one substance, not one person; and it is said, 'I and my Father are one' in respect NOT IN THE SINGULARITY OF NUMBER but the unity of the substance." What is one substance Peg, when speaking of deity? if they are not directly advocating it, they are referring to Christ in a human relationship and servant state. others flat disregard what scripture clearly states
The only explanation for that is becaues there was not doctrine at that time. I have already demonstrated this to be false in two ways. I have provided direct statements from early Christians to this effect.I can reproduce them if you wish. secondly i demonstrated that the scriptures ascribe all the attributes of God to Christ. I can reproduce them if you wish EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
unfortunately none of those scriptures tell us that God took on human form... im pretty sure you wont find a scripture that does. How can you be taken serious as a person and a bible student if you will not be serious Peg. Do you really think you have to find the words "he took on a human form for that premise to be valid No thinking person could ever come away from Genesis 18, not understanding that God appeared to Abraham in the form of a man.
Genesis 18 1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. 9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. 10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. 15Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh. 16And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: 28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. 30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. 32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. 33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place. Think of the vilest, loathsome, repugnant atheist on this website, as in the form of Cavediver or Oni and even they would not miss that point in Genesis Who was the Judge of all the earth that Abraham was talking to?
Yes God spoke to people thru his angels, yes he gave visions of himself but nowhere is he ever physically seen except for Moses was saw the glory of his back after Moses was shielded from seeing God in his fullness. i cant actually believe I am having this discussion. Not to be silly but doesnt the back have a front, doesnt the back have a top and a bottom. Even if it was a manifestation, it was a manifestation in human form, somethin Moses could understand
of course he had all the attributes of God, he imitated God perfectly as he said he did Even mankind has been created in the 'image' of God with that attributes of God...Adam was a perfect man with those attributes, we are imperfect people and we still display Gods attributes. And Jesus was said to be a 'corresponding' ransom for the 'first man Adam' well this will be the third or fourth time now I have pressed you to please find an angel or man that corresponds to the nature of God in all his attributes, like one can find with Christ in the NT. I can reproduce those attributes and passages if you wish Where is it said of any man or angel, "I AM the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the alpha and the Omega, the resurrection and the life. This is clearly a discription of God, and it is said by and about Christ pointing out some similarites between God and man wont work
So if Jesus corresponds to the life that Adam lost, then Adam was a perfect man who had the same attributes of God like Jesus....and like chrisitans can also have. It doesnt make all of us God becuase we can have the attributes of God. verbage and SOME corresponding attributes wont remove the difficulty of your task to show what Christ has to God. every discription of God can be duplicated in Christ by using the NT. One doesnt need a brick to fall on them to determine why this is the case. there is no need for me to demonstrate this point again, as your task is nothing short of impossible and you are demonstrating it with a continued predilection of irrelevancy Adam did not have the same attributes of God, he was created by an eternal God
lets be clear that he most certainly not advocating that trinity...he is not saying that God and Christ and Holy spirit are all one being which is what the trinity claims. The trinity does not advocate that the trinity is one being, it advocates that it is one God, with three personalities. God, YAWH and Jehovah are its title and name, as far as we know
He is saying they are all one with respect to 'substance' which does not mean what you think it means. It means their purpose, goals, desires are one and the same. this is in harmony with Jesus words perhaps there are commentaries on his statement to determine what he meant by substance and I would like to see them. but a simple reading of his statement would make it clear that substance also includes essence, purpose, goals and whatever else. Your wave of the hand exclamation that it doesnt mean what I think it means is your theology shinning through
Jesus showed that his desires are the same as his Fathers, his will is the same as his Fathers, his goals are the same as his Fathers. In this way the substance of everything Jesus is, was the same as the Fathers. you know that I do not disagree with your above estimation at all, but the scriptures make it clear that Christs attributes and Gods are identical, theygo far beyond any man or angel This gives me an idea for another thread and I will need the coroperation of all the Christians here to provide insight and scriptural understanding You dont believe Jesus is God eternal, does and should this constitue a matter of fellowship with yourself from our perspective.i dont believe you consider us Christians in the first place, because we need to be a part of and in your group to be saved in the first place. my proposition here is, what is the dividing line from a doctrinal standpoint to not allow fellowship with say such a person as yourself, that does not believe Christ is God. Or is this enough of a reason to break fellowship For example John admonishes us to not eat with one who denies jesus came inthe flesh. Would the belief that Christ is not God also fall into that category Where is the linein th sand and scriptues maye this will fly with the Admin as an acceptable thread its 2:00 AM here I am going to bed EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
i've stated this previously, I've given an example of how Moses was said to 'speak to pharoah, or isreal' yet it was actually Aaron doing the talking. Some would not, but I will follow you down your bunny trail, to expose your error . Yes the scriptures are very clear that Moses spoke to Pharoah by Aaron, but it makes that very clear and states specifically that that was the case Now there is no indication or hint that in Gen 18, there is no dynamic or fleibility, that allows this to be anybody but God himself Notice that the Lord does not indicate, hint or suggest that he has been sent in any fashion, by anyone elses authority, he speaks directly as God would and does in everyother passage concerning God in the scriptures. No peg, no amount of twisting of scripture will allow your conclusions in Gen 18. So your theory that God never manifested himself in human form falls to the ground I challenge you to find the slightest hint in this passage that makes this an angel, the verbage and context will not allow it
Just remember that other scriptures tell us that No one has seen God at ANYTIME, and even God has said 'you cannot see me and live' I know that it is nessecary for you to maintain this doctrine to maintainyour other belief that jesus is not God. But this is also an indication that most if not all objectivity is being set aside where rational discussion is not possible concerning the subject It seems that even the simplest passages are being manipulated and set aside in favor of a belief or doctrine. Here is an interesting point. You seem to have no reason for believing that God could not manifest himself in some form or fashion, that does not allow us to see his fulll glory, but allows him to converse with humans in person, oher than the fact that you personally dont like the idea. there needs to be more, because without exception, Gen 18, is directly stating that this is what happened without question Since there is absolutley no indication that this so-called angel gave any indication that he was sent or there by any others authority and since he speaks as only God would speak, since the passage is clear he was there in the form of a man, it seems you cannot offer one argument to make it anything less than God himself. Again, even if it was a manifestation, does not Gods back have a front, does not the back have a top and bottom? Was there height and length to the back?
but they are not identical in the fact that Jesus is a created being unlike God who is not. Remember Proverbs 8:22 Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth..." Your theological ship is hitting a sand barge Peg and that is assuming that Proverbs 8n is speaking about Christ and not wisdom in a metephrical sense. Since both God and Christ are described as the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last from everlasting to everlasting, this would make them one and the same. Now watch this. If Christ was created and he is described in the exact same fashion as God, then it would follow that God was created as well, because there is no other language that applies to God that does not apply to Christ. The passage in Revelations closes the door on any speculation as to who and what Christ was and whether he had a beginning pre incarnation EMA writes:
The trinity does not advocate that the trinity is one being, it advocates that it is one God, with three personalities. God, YAWH and Jehovah are its title and name, as far as we know Peg writes: and Jesus??? Is God, having set aside his glory, his title and primary name, for allitle while to to live as a man and die for man. The Alpha and the Omega (Christ) cannot literally have a beginning,only a beginning inthe simce that he took on the form of a servant EMA writes: You dont believe Jesus is God eternal, does and should this constitue a matter of fellowship with yourself from our perspective.
Peg writes:Not in the context of our discussion on EVC, no. Thats kind of vauge Peg could you clarify or just answer the question directly EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
So in light of all these verses from different writers that angels were the ones who transmitted the law and the visions seen of God were really of Angels, how can you deny them and continue to say that God actually did these things himself? Or perhaps you'll view these verses with an open mind and see that it is highly likely that God used these angels as his representatives just as the scriptures show. i'll leave that for you to decide. So when the scriptures say that God created the first angels, we are to believe that God did this by and through angels? Hmmm? When the scriptures say someone saw God SITTING on his throne are we to believe they SAW a Spirit sitting. What exacally did they see when they saw him sitting on his throne?
Or perhaps you'll view these verses with an open mind and see that it is highly likely that God used these angels as his representatives just as the scriptures show. Peg it is yourself that is not being openminded. Of course God did things through Angels and Men, but it is a close minded person that disallows a plain passage like Gen 18, to support a doctrine. Watch this Peg. When the God Overshadowed Mary do you think this was an Angel. According to your conclusions we must assume it was actually an angel and not God himself, because it had to do with physical things, God forbid there is no reason, as I stated before, to believe that simply because men and angels do things for God, we should assume God cannot do things directly on his own. I have demonstrated your misguided view of Johns statment can have exceptions
If its only becuase of the few verses which tell us that Aaron was a mouth to moses that you accept that idea, so now you should try to apply that reasoning to the following scriptures which show that God used angels to speak to people. Actually I am saying just the opposite. I dont believe Aaron spoke every SINGLE word, just as I am justified in believing because angels do things of r God that it must mean every single thing
No that is simply not the case. ITs the scritpures that tell us that God did not show himself physically to anyone and the scriptures that tell us that he used Angels to speak to people....just as Moses used Aaron to speak for him. Is it possible for God to manifest himself in another fashion (say as a man), so as to conceal his glory, to protect man? So when the scriptures state that someone saw God sitting on his throne we should believe they saw a Spirit and not someone sitting somewhere
GOD SITTING UPON HIS THRONE I Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne , and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. II Chronicles 8:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne , and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. Psalms 47:8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness. Psalms 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne . (Notice the "I". This is God the Father and thus speaks of the deity of Jesus, who fulfilled this promise. See Acts 2:30 below.) Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne , high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God , and by him that sitteth thereon. Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (See Psalms 132:11 above) Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne . Revelation 4:1-3 [4:1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [4:2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne . [4:3] And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (God the Father) Revelation 4:9-11 [4:9] And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne , who liveth for ever and ever, [4:10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne , and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, [4:11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (God the Father) Revelation 5:1, 7 [5:1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. [5:7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne . (God the Father) Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne , and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. ( God the Father) Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the Lamb: (God the Father) Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne , and unto the Lamb. Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. (God the Father) Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it , from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Jesus) Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Jesus) There is no reason to believe they did not see a human figure sitting on a throne, correct Peg writes concerning the scriptures he providedThe chrisitans beleived this as the above scriptures show. John, Paul and Stephen all say the same thing. Its not just because i dont want to believe that God spoke to men...its because the christians didnt beleive it for the reason that they believed and understood what the hebrew scriptures said on the matter. No this is what you believe peg, there is no indication they believed what you say exclusively. there is every indication they believed excally what is stated in these verses. EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
well if you think its possible that God with his inifite power and energy could be bundled up into a tiny fleck of human flesh, then thats up to you I personally dont believe God could do that for the reason that his being is far too great for it. If Moses had to be protected from viewing even the back of God, how on earth could God be ecapsulated into such a weak and vulnerable piece of flesh??? You are an intelligent person Peg, use your head for a moment. everything is God material, God doesnt get wrapped up in anything, he is confined to nothing, because there is nothing besides him. he simply reorganizes material for his purposes. The only thing that matters is thought and the thought process. Notice the distinction Christ made between the physical and the mental, the world and the soul. While the physical will cease (change its form again into something else), the soul which is God reoganized and created and God driven will continue forever. God manifesting himself in human form, is no great feat for him, it is an act of love. if Gods creation is GOOD, then there is no disrespect to God, in manifesting himself inthat form , correct?
I personally dont believe God could do that for the reason that his being is far too great for it. God is to great to manifest himself in SOMETHING HE CREATED AND CALLED GOOD? You make no sense here Peg. If it is above him to manifest himself in it, then wouldnt it follow that he is to great to created yucky physical things in the first place. God immediately starts communicating with these gross humans in the garden and then continues through there existence. Whats the point if he is to great. "What is man that THOU ART MINFUL OF HIME, or the son of man that you visit him" Your respect for God is admirable, but it seems to be misplaced
Stephen saw that vision, and Ezekiel saw a similar vision... but a vision is not a phyical view of God. When Stephen said he saw God on his throne and Jesus standing beside him, no one else saw it....the jews around him thought he was blaspheming and proceeded to stone him. So it wasnt a physical view of God that Stephen saw. So God was just leading these people on. There is no reason for them to believe or have comfort in anything they saw correct, it was all just a trick. besides this what did they see, was it God manifesting himself as human or not?
Ok well like i said, that is your perogative. We'll have to agree to disagree. So on to the fellowship question or on to the question of original sin, or nothing at all, which do you suggest EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Unfortunately, the scriptures that have been used simply do not mesh with the many that I have posted which show the opposite. Even Jesus own words about who he was do not fit with the idea that he is God. Tell me why Jesus did not announce that he was God in the flesh? Rather he said said: I am God’s Son. (John 10:36) Tell me why, if he was God, he said I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 5:30) Also, explain why when he was on the torture stake, he prayed to God when he cried out My God, my God why have you forsaken me. (Matthew 27:46) And then aftere he had been resurrected he told Mary Magdalene I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. (John 20:1, 17) And no one has even attempted to explain what John meant when he said under inspiration No man has seen God at any time. That is simply not true Peg. I have demonstrated several times now that that expression can and is qualified, by examples like Gen 18 and that Moses was asking to see Gods true nature. I think there is a greater point going on here. We often dont see things from others perspectives. I realized the other day that you truely believe in your mind what you are advocating because you have always been taught it and we are trying to force something down your throat. Perhaps the best that can be offered is that we all consider eachothers points. Im more interested at this point whether yourself and the other Christians consider this a matter of fellowship, whether you from the start consider such things mattersof felowship. Do you cosider others here as Christians because they do not believe as you do Back on trackhere however, I understand all your contentions about Jesus seeming dependancy on God, his being called a son, angels doing things for God. But yousimply cannot aois the fact that angels and men are not ASCRIBED with all the attributes of God. No angel is called the first and the Last, the Alpha and Omega. This point simply cannot be avoided or argued away. hey Just think about it and we will consider your positionas well
the meaning of 'soul' has changed since it was written in ancient times, I get the impression you are going with the current meaning of soul....as some life force that exists outside the physical body? The original meaning of the word soul, as it is written in the scriptures, means 'the living body' but i wont take us off topic No what I meant was that God is everything, or everything in existence is God material. So God manipulating that material or presenting himself in humaan form would be relatively nothing as Catholic Scientist has indacted
Not at all. Visions were given to people so that they could be informed of what was to happen or what they were to do, or so that they could be assured that God was with them. God does not exist in any form,he is a spirit without a body, so he is invisble to human eyes. So obviously God gives us an image that we can understand...he gives us an image, but not of his true self. I agree. But whether it is a manifestation or a vision he is presenting himself in such a way as to say I am speaking to you in this form, it is I, God who addresses you. Like I said, we will consider your position if you will consider ours. That is the best we can hope for at this point. Beliefs and convictions run deep and change is never easy, whether its you or I. I have a friend who is JW and she recently died and left her daughter behind, because she signed a statement saying she would not recieve a transfusion, which have easily saved her life. True story again. It was very shocking to me, but as I said convictions run deep
Ill let you decide Thanks, if it is appropriate, Id like to discuss what constitutes fellowship and the areas where each of us believes that we need to part company in connection with excommunication. ill write it up and pass it through Admin and of course cavediver for approval in content and English Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Much like the trinity, for such supposedly important concepts, God is exceptionally (suspiciously) vague on these matters... Welcome cavediver, also known to EAM as Space Ghost How else could the Apostle through inspiration made or stated it any clearer. If one does not understand what FORM of God means, he clears it up in the next two phrases, "did not think that EQUALITY with God was something to be GRASPED". You cannot let go of something you ARE NOT HOLDING". Then he says "He emptied himself of the EQUALITY and took on the form of a servant, made in the likeness of men" You cannot empty yourself of something you do not have. but the phrases must be read together as in any proper evaluation of a sentence, correct? In one verse all of Peg contentions concerning Christ are refuted That he is indeed God That he has manifested himself in the form of Man, or the likeness of men I dont see how he could hve made it any clearer. What language could he have used. The Apostle would be counter productive in even referncing Christ as God, if he was not and everybody already knew that, what would be the point of demonstrating that Christ was not equal to God, when Christ Paul and everybody else already knew that point. It would do more harm than good, if he was not God and everybody alrady knew that, because he was mere man As i keep pointing out to Peg, no Angel or man is ever referenced as Not being equal to God, for the very reason, that everybody already knows this fact As I keep pointing out to Peg, no one else is described as having the exact characteristics of God, except Christ. So the passages that seem to suggest he is less than God, should of course be understood as and during his servant state, the place where he emptied himself of these qualities, in figurative sense of course Concerning EAMs English Cavediver writes, in times past, "Can you do Better" I thought that was both helpful and funny. Also, the passage I referenced yours and Oni's name as being loathsome and vile, I was ofcourse kidding, I wanted to see if I could get a rise out of you. I hope you took it in the spirit it was given, in fun EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
thats right....yet if Jesus WAS the father, then everything would be his own will and his comment "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative" is a contradiction. Not if he willingly set aside these privledeges, for the good of mankind, correct? He willingly set aside his deity, not literaly, but in purpose to be created a little lower than the angels and was found in the in the likeness of Men. To become a man means he would need to experience and live as a man with certain limitations, of his own freewill. You have not touched this point that I have now made numerous times, over again and again. His limitations as you see them were of his own freewill and he could as God have chosen to revoke those at any minute, but he did not. What angel or man could call down 10000 angels, should he decided to so through his father. yet the father image was due stricly and because he chose to be born a man, OF HIS OWN FREEWILL But it does not mean that he was not God as the rest of the scriptures concerning him indicate. If one wants to know what Philipians 2 means look at Colosians chapter one concerning him If one wishes to understand Philipians and Colosians, look at John the first chapter. The ambiguity that you suggest exist Peg does infact not exists concerning his deity if for example Philipians 2 were the only passage dealing with his alleged deity, then you have a point. happily it is not. the ones above and to may others give a CLEAR picture of what is being taught. isolating passages allows one a certain amount of ambiguity. The toatlity of the scriptures concerning this doctrine are very clear
If Jesus was the father, then everything was Jesus will. Jesus was not the Father and neither was Jehovah before the incarnation, there was simply Jehovah God. God was not the "father of spirits" Hebrews, before he created spirits. God was not the creator before he created anything, he was simply and soley God However the His will, thy Will and my Will makes perfect sense in a SELF-WILLED servant state. Besides the Peg if Jesus were simply a created being in the form of an angel angel, then he could not truely be called the unique or only begotten Son of God. Something had to be of God essence for him to be a unique Son of God We are all created by God, even if it is by birth. if there is not deity, then he was and is not Gods ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. We are created spirits, created and infused by Gods creative act by birth. If Jesus was simply a created being, then born (infused)of man by god, then it would follow that Jesus, the created being is no different than ourselves. But we are not unique or only begotten sons of God. So if jesus is a created being an not truely God, then why is his birth any different than anyone elses So God simply infused (overshadowed) Mary with a created before birth being
but they do NOT say that the 'angels of the Lord' were God himself. Your assuming that in a clear cut case as in Gen 18, that it simply does not mean exacally what it says, "the Lord spoke with Abraham" genesis 18[qs]22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Standing before the Lord and Abraham approched him does not have to mean an angel or messenger and why would one assume it meant that to begin with, when the language is so clear Genesis 19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. these two are described as angels, the Man in 18 is not decribed as an angel ever, but the Lord Why make any more out of it than what the text indicatesEAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given. Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 113 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
the problem is that you go beyond saying Jesus is a diety....You are saying he is the Creator, the Almighty Jehovah, YWHY I didnt say he was the creator, John and Paul did, not the beatles the Apostles Col 1:13 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him." Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me there is only one God Peg, eternal in character and nature. Created beings are not God eternal.
New Living Translation (2007) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." English Standard Version (2001)I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. New American Standard Bible (1995)"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." International Standard Version (2008)I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. GOD'S WORD Translation (1995)I am the A and the Z, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. King James BibleI am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. American King James VersionI am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. American Standard VersionI am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Bible in Basic EnglishI am the First and the Last, the start and the end. Douay-Rheims BibleI am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Darby Bible TranslationI am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. English Revised VersionI am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Webster's Bible TranslationI am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Weymouth New TestamentI am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. World English BibleI am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Young's Literal TranslationI am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. Geneva Study BibleI am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. People's New Testament 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega. See PNT Re 1:8. The three titles given here have a similar signification. The first and the last. See Re 1:17. Wesley's Notes 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last - Who exist from everlasting to everlasting. How clear, incontestable a proof, does our Lord here give of his divine glory! Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary 13. I am Alpha-Greek, ". the Alpha and the Omega." A, B, Vulgate, Syriac, Origen, and Cyprian transpose thus, "the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Andreas supports English Version. Compare with these divine titles assumed here by the Lord Jesus, Re 1:8, 17; 21:6. At the winding up of the whole scheme of revelation He announces Himself as the One before whom and after whom there is no God. Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 22:6-19 The Lord Jesus spake by the angel, solemnly confirming the contents of this book, particularly of this last vision. He is the Lord God faithful and true. Also by his messengers; the holy angels showed them to holy men of God. They are things that must shortly be done; Christ will come quickly, and put all things out of doubt. And by the integrity of that angel who had been the apostle's interpreter. He refused to accept religious worship from John, and reproved him for offering it. This presents another testimony against idolatrous worship of saints and angels. God calls every one to witness to the declarations here made. This book, thus kept open, will have effect upon men; the filthy and unjust will be more so, but it will confirm, strengthen, and further sanctify those who are upright with God. Never let us think that a dead or disobedient faith will save us, for the First and the Last has declared that those alone are blessed who do his commandments. It is a book that shuts out form heaven all wicked and unrighteous persons, particularly those who love and make lies, therefore cannot itself be a lie. There is no middle place or condition. Jesus, who is the Spirit of prophecy, has given his churches this morning-light of prophecy, to assure them of the light of the perfect day approaching. All is confirmed by an open and general invitation to mankind, to come and partake freely of the promises and of the privileges of the gospel. The Spirit, by the sacred word, and by convictions and influence in the sinner's conscience, says, Come to Christ for salvation; and the bride, or the whole church, on earth and in heaven, says, Come and share our happiness. Lest any should hesitate, it is added, Let whosoever will, or, is willing, come and take of the water of life freely. May every one who hears or reads these words, desire at once to accept the gracious invitation. All are condemned who should dare to corrupt or change the word of God, either by adding to it, or taking from it. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me John 1 "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." if after this you still believe that Christ is not God eternal, then so be it. We will indeed have to agree to disagree. hopefully we have given eachother insights to eachothers viewpoints EAM Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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