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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Polytheistic?
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 154 of 375 (564663)
06-11-2010 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by New Cat's Eye
06-11-2010 2:37 PM


Re: Specifics and
If Christians will objectively and religion-independently consider Loki (for example) as a god concept why won't they (with the same objective hat on) accept Satan as a god concept?
They would.
So objectively speaking Satan is a god concept. Thankyou.
And thus (objectively speaking) accept that Christianity is polytheistic?
Because even though they recognize that satan can be a god concept, they don't think that he is a God.
Of course. Any more than a I would expect that a Christian would accept that Vishnu or Thor or Apollo or Odin or Kali to be a "God".
Yet if both Satan and Yahweh are objectively recognised as god concepts then this indisputably makes biblical Christianity objectively polytheistic does it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 2:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 4:47 PM Straggler has replied
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 155 of 375 (564664)
06-11-2010 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Perdition
06-11-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
I would hazard to say that a Christian, if they're being honest, would say that Satan meets the minimum requirements to be considered a god, when speaking in the broad sense of the term.
When Christians talk about the cultural universality of belief in god concepts it indisputably includes concepts such as Satan.
The qualifier you make "if they're being honest" says all that needs to be said about the Christian denial of this fact and the equivocation of this term.
You'd have to ask Slevesque that. I can't read his mind to decipher what he meant, especially out of context.
I have. And he has not answered. I wonder why.

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 161 of 375 (564713)
06-12-2010 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Pauline
06-10-2010 10:34 PM


Normal people want to worship good gods....you know, favorable ones. And yet, you seem to to be taken aback when I include the criterion, benevolent?
Actually no. Historically most people have wanted their gods to be benevolent to their followers but to kick the ass of everyone else.
This is indisputably true of yahweh of the OT. It remains true for many brands of modern Christianity and Islam. And I see little reason to expect the concept of Satan to act much differently.
So, do you have a problem with that?
You have the problem. If by "benevolent" you mean benevolent to everyone then your general criteria for godliness excludes pretty much every god concept humanity has ever envisaged including many versions of your own. Howevr if by "benevolent" you simply mean benevolent to the followers of that particular superatural entity then you include as gods pretty much every such concept ever conceived including Satan (which I am guessing you are trying to avoid).

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 162 of 375 (564715)
06-12-2010 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by subbie
06-11-2010 4:58 PM


Alien Anthropologists
But then, that isn't what anyone else in the world considers to be polytheism, so it doesn't really help your position much.
Hmmmm.
Can anthropologists, arcaheologists and historians recognise forms of theism and god concepts without relying on the specific definitions and qualifications imposed by individual religions?
If an alien anthropologist studying the dead race of humanity in the far flung future investigated biblical Christianity they would conclude that it is a polytheistic religion that considered itself monotheistic.
In objective terms Satan is no less a god concept than many other concepts accepted as such by Christians and everyone else.
Continuing your equivocation, I see.
Just becaue you cannot get past the idea that I am imposing one religions definition of god onto another does not mean that this is what I am actually doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by subbie, posted 06-11-2010 4:58 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by subbie, posted 06-12-2010 1:04 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 163 of 375 (564716)
06-12-2010 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by New Cat's Eye
06-11-2010 4:47 PM


Satan Exists!!
Do biblical Christians believe Satan exists?
How could it be any less clear unless you are desperately trying to make Christianity out to be polytheistic?
Can anthropologists, arcaheologists and historians recognise forms of theism and god concepts without relying on the specific definitions and qualifications imposed by individual religions?
If an alien anthropologist studying the dead race of humanity in the far flung future investigated biblical Christianity they would conclude that it is a polytheistic religion that considered itself monotheistic.
In objective terms Satan is no less a god concept than many other concepts accepted as such by Christians and everyone else.
Do you deny that Yahweh is a god concept or are you a polythiest?
Yahweh is a god concept. So is Apolllo. So is Satan. So is Loki. So is Zeus. So is Thor. Etc.
But I don't believe any of them exist. Thus I am not a polytheist or any other sort of theist.
How many of those god concepts to biblical Christians believe exist?
Polytheism is the belief in and/or worship of multiple deities, called gods and/or goddesses.
Biblical Christians believe in the existence of both Satan and Yahweh. The only reason they accept Loki (for example) as a god concept but deny the same status to Satan is because they believe Satan exists and the existence of two god concepts doesn't fit well with their monotheistic view of themselves.
Biblical Christians are polytheists by all but their own definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 4:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2010 1:12 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 166 of 375 (564720)
06-12-2010 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by subbie
06-11-2010 4:35 PM


Teacups and Satanity
So a believer in a different religion might call Satan god. That's really quite irrelevant to what Christians think.
Why does it matter what Chrsitians assert? Christians also insist that there trinity is one god. But you don't have any problem telling they are wrong on that. So why do you suddenly give them last word on whether or not Satan qualifies as a god concept?
I daresay that the adherents of each religion are allowed to define their own religion and need not conform it to anything that any other religion believes.
Assertion: Bob is an atheist. bob doesn't believe in the existence of gods.
However Bob does believe that teacups are the physical manifestation of supernatural conscious beings who watch over us and make good or bad things happen to us depending on how well we treat our teacups and whether or not we correctly perform the tea drinking rituals passed down through antiquity. Bob's personal diary describes these beliefs in full.
If you were an anthropologist would you conclude that Bob is a theist or an atheist? Would you base your decision on his assertion? Or on the evidence as to what Bob's beliefs actually consist of?
I daresay that the adherents of each religion are allowed to define their own religion and need not conform it to anything that any other religion believes.
Biblical Christian Assertion: Both Satan and Yahweh exist but only one of them is a god. Vishnu, Kali, Baal, Thor, Loki et al are false gods because they do not exist.
Now look at Satan in comparison to all the other concepts that we label as "god". Compare the concept of Satan with any of the vast array of such concepts tha humanity has come up with, ancient and modern, powerful and benign.
Tell me how an anthropologist would not consider biblical Christianity to be polytheistic based on it's belief in (at least) two such concepts regardless of the assertions of Christians themselves about Satan's godly status.
Explain that to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by subbie, posted 06-11-2010 4:35 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by subbie, posted 06-12-2010 1:36 AM Straggler has replied
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 167 of 375 (564722)
06-12-2010 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by subbie
06-12-2010 1:04 AM


Re: Alien Anthropologists
No, because those forms of theism and god concepts exist only as generalizations from those individuals religions.
So how would we determine whether a newly dsicovered culture believed in something we would call a "god"?
Christianity doesn't consider Satan to be a god, but other religions do. You are therefore insisting that Christianity must be polytheistic because it recognizes the existence of a being that other religions call a god. What do I have wrong?
The godly status of Satan has nothing to do with other religions.
It has to do with meeting the same objective criteria to be labelled with the term "god" as do all those other concepts that we happily call as such (but that Christians don't believe to actually exist).
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 168 of 375 (564723)
06-12-2010 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Dr Adequate
06-12-2010 1:10 AM


And they would accept pencils as the god-concept of pencil-worshipers.
The difference being that no anthropologist studying a new human culture would conlude that believing in pencils qualified ones culture as theistic.
However a newly discovered culture that believes in a horned fiery supernatural entity which tortures wicked people in a lake of fire for all eternity after they die probably would be classed as theistic. No?

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 170 of 375 (564725)
06-12-2010 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by subbie
06-12-2010 1:36 AM


Re: Teacups and Satanity
Religions don't define their gods by crafting a general definition then look for beings that meet it. They define their gods by listing them.
So how would we determine whether a newly dsicovered culture believed in something we would call a "god"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by subbie, posted 06-12-2010 1:36 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by subbie, posted 06-12-2010 7:47 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 172 of 375 (564727)
06-12-2010 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Dr Adequate
06-12-2010 1:39 AM


Re: Thanks
We can recognise theism and god concepts in vastly diverse cultures, ancient and modern ...
Speak for everyone except yourself.
Are you suggesting we haven't identified god concepts in different cultures?
A newly discovered culture that believes in a horned fiery supernatural entity which tortures wicked people in a lake of fire for all eternity after they die would probably would be classed as theistic and said entity as a "god". No?
Well, how do you do this?
Well what would you say is common to all the concepts that we do label as "god" and how does Satan not qualify?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-12-2010 1:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-12-2010 3:39 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 182 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-14-2010 9:07 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 175 of 375 (564826)
06-13-2010 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by subbie
06-12-2010 7:47 PM


Re: Teacups and Satanity
So how would we determine whether a newly dsicovered culture believed in something we would call a "god"?
No idea, I'm not an anthropologist.
Well if you want to understand my point in this thread maybe you should try and consider what an anthropologist looking at this question dispassionately and from a religion-independent point of view would see looking at the bible.
How could they possibly not conclude that the whole Yahweh/Christ Vs Satan/Anti-Christ thing is anything but good gods vs bad gods regardless of what labels the particular followers of any particular aspect might assert?
But I can tell you this: if someone in that new culture told me, "We worship Jerry Lewis as god, but Dean Martin isn't god," my first conclusion wouldn't be that Dean Martin is one of their gods.
Polytheism isn't about worship. It is about belief. If the culture believes that both Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis exist then how do we establsish whether they consider any of them to be gods?
Are Satanists who worship Satan but believe in the existence of both Satan and Yahweh polytheists?
I would say obvioulsy so.
I daresay that the adherents of each religion are allowed to define their own religion and need not conform it to anything that any other religion believes.
Your argument in this thread is that each religion defines it's own gods but that yahweh and Christ count as two Christian gods despite what Christians say whilst Satan and the anti-Christ don't count as any gods because Christians say so.
I'm sorry Subbie but this is contradictory bollocks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by subbie, posted 06-12-2010 7:47 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by subbie, posted 06-13-2010 9:23 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 176 of 375 (564827)
06-13-2010 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Dr Adequate
06-12-2010 3:39 AM


Good Gods Vs Bad gods
Do you agree that those who worship Satan but also believe in the existence of Yahweh are polytheists?
How could anyone looking at the bible objectively and from the point of view of no particular religion possibly not conclude that the whole Yahweh/Christ Vs Satan/Anti-Christ thing is anything but good gods vs bad gods regardless of what labels particular followers might assert in silly internal acts of partisanship?
Dr A writes:
So, what is the best English translation of (a) vespuna and (b) qaghruna? Do these people believe in (a) gods and (b) more gods --- or do they believe in (a) gods and (b) devils?
I would suggest that an anthropologist looking at this dispassionately and from a religion-independent point of view wouldn't get too hung up on the internal distinctions being made by individual sects or shcisms and would class the culture as blatantly polytheistic.
Why are you insisting on seeing every god through the eyes of a believer? Why can't you step back and see that Satan and the anti-Christ are just the bad gods in the Christian good god Vs bad god scenario?
This is obvioulsy the case regardless of the silly labels those too embroiled in their own beliefs place on individual elements.
Frankly I expected better of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-12-2010 3:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-13-2010 4:16 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 178 of 375 (564843)
06-13-2010 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Dr Adequate
06-13-2010 4:16 AM


Re: Good Gods Vs Bad gods
And they would accept pencils as the god-concept of pencil-worshipers.
Are those Christians who worship Mary mother of God polytheists?
Do you agree that those who worship Satan but also believe in the existence of Yahweh are polytheists?
I'd have to ask them a few questions first.
Such as? Satanists don't seem to query the godly status of Yahweh. They simply worship Satan rather than any of the other biblical characters. You are ducking the question. Again.
You ducked the question.
Actually no. I let you get away with ducking and re-inventing my question. So I will ask it again in such a way as to try and avoid that this time.
A newly discovered culture that believes in a horned fiery supernatural entity which tortures wicked people in a lake of fire for all eternity after they die would probably would be classed as theistic and said entity as a "god". No?
The nature of this discovery are some poem extracts, some pictorial evidence and some archaeological finds in burial sites. They pre-date any form of Judaism currently known and have been found in the South Pacific. This is a far more realistic scenario than the one you are trying to shoehorn in.
Well, what would you say is common to all the concepts that we label as "a game"?
I don't need to define "life" to recognise that a caterpillar is a form of life. I don't need to define "game" to see that if I invent a past-time that involves moving pieces on a board following a set of rules such that two competing participants can vie to win is a "game".
Likewise we don't need a specific cast iron one sentance definition of "god" to recognise Satan as such.
Dr A writes:
Apparently, by virtue of being absolutely anyone in the whole world except you.
Apparently not. See below.
Percy writes:
There is no substantial difference between the minor gods of the ancient Greeks and Christian angels. In reality Christians believe in a host of supernatural beings, just like the ancient Greeks, and the fact that they prefer the label "angels" instead of "gods" is just a matter of nomenclature. Message 214
Woodsy writes:
Christians sure behave as if they believed in a multiplicity of gods. They do pray to saints and Mary. They do expect angels to aid them. Message 63
And anyway since when did argumentum ad populum hold any sway with you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-13-2010 4:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-13-2010 10:56 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 183 of 375 (565018)
06-14-2010 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Modulous
06-11-2010 3:28 AM


Re: Polytheistic Roots of Christianity
Hey Mod
Mod writes:
This, however, I've never heard before.
Here is the extract from Wright’s book regarding the whole ‘children of Israel’/’sons of El’ translation (sorry later than intended — been busy).
Here is the explicit quote:
Robert Wright writes:
Some scholars who have used the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint to reconstruct the authentic version of the verse say that children of Israel was stuck in as a replacement for sons of El.
Here is the wider context:
Robert Wright writes:
Consider this innocent-sounding verse from the thirty-second chapter of Deuteronomy as rendered in the King James Version, published in 1611:
When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
This verse, though a bit obscure, seems to say that Godcalled the Most High in one place and the Lord in anothersomehow divided the world’s people into groups and then took an especially proprietary interest in one group, Jacob’s. But this interpretation rests on the assumption that Most High and the Lord do both refer to Yahweh. Do they?
The second termthe Lorddefinitely does; this is the Bible’s standard rendering of the original Hebrew Yhwh. But might Most HighElyonrefer to [the Canaanite god] El? It’s possible; the two words appear togetherEl Elyonmore than two dozen times in the Bible. What moves this prospect from possible toward probable is the strange story behind another part of this verse: the phrase children of Israel.
The King James edition got this phrase from the Masoretic Text, a Hebrew edition of the Bible that took shape in the early Middle Ages, more than a millennium after Deuteronomy was written. Where the Masoretic Textthe earliest extant Hebrew Biblegot it is a mystery. The phrase isn’t found in either of the two much earlier versions of the verse now available: a Hebrew version in the Dead Sea Scrolls and a Greek version in the Septuagint, a pre-Christian translation of the Hebrew Bible.
Why would some editor have invented the phrase? Was something being covered up?
Some scholars who have used the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint to reconstruct the authentic version of the verse say that children of Israel was stuck in as a replacement for sons of El. With that lost phrase restored, a verse that was cryptic suddenly makes sense: Elthe most high god, Elyondivided the world’s people into ethnic groups and gave one group to each of his sons. And Yahweh, one of those sons, was given the people of Jacob. Apparently at this point in Israelite history (and there’s no telling how long ago this story originated) Yahweh isn’t God, but just a godand a son of God, one among many.
So how does Yahweh rise through the ranks? How does a god initially consigned to a lower level of the pantheon eventually merge with the chief god, El, and even, in a sense, supplant him?
And here is a link to that entire extract: Sons of El
Back to the debate later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Modulous, posted 06-11-2010 3:28 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Modulous, posted 06-16-2010 8:52 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 184 of 375 (565020)
06-14-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dr Adequate
06-13-2010 10:56 PM


Re: Good Gods Vs Bad gods
So let me get this straight.
If I pray to, sanctify and venerate bog standard non-supernatural wooden pencils and I term these practises as worship you will consider pencils as gods and thus class me as a theist.
If I pray to, sanctify and venerate bog-standard non-supernatural wooden pencils in a manner identical to the above but insist that I am not actually worshipping pencils then I remain an atheist.
If Christians pray to, sanctify, venerate and worship (in all but name) a supernatural heavenly Mary - That does NOT qualify as god worship and they remain monotheists.
Can you confirm that this rather ridiculous exercise in definitional relativism is indeed your position in this thread or explain to me where I have misunderstood your argument?
Except that most people don't recognize Satan as a god.
You seem determined to take self asserted distinctions of nomenclature designed by Christians to convince themselves that they are monotheists and elevate them into some sort of conceptual difference that should be objectively applied by everybody else. Why would anyone aside from Christians attempting to delude themselves about the polytheistic roots of their own religion take any notice of such internal and blatantly partisan distinctions at all?
The only reason Christianity is nominally monotheistic is because it has gone through a process of My god is better than your god. In fact your god is so rubbish and mine so wonderful that we are not even going to call your god a god anymore. Nah nah nah nah. It really has nothing to do with any absence of multiple god concepts being absent from the bible. Satan blatantly being one of them by any remotely objective conceptual measure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-13-2010 10:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2010 10:10 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 199 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2010 6:10 AM Straggler has not replied

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