When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

Hi jar,Welcome back. By universe I mean everything material that we can see and everything we can not see that exists.By creation I mean the beginning of existence of the universe.We know the universe exists. We can observe it.Did it begin to exist 13.7 billion years ago as put forth?ORHas it always existed in some form?I go with the latter. Are you saying it came from non existence?If so by what process was that accomplished? How do you determine those forces are natural? We do have what we call the laws of physics. These are rules for certain things to happen in certain ways.The question is where did these laws come from?Were they provided by intelligence?ORWhere they provided by some accident?They did have to exist before the universe began to expand.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Ringo, I was not talking about intelligence being required for molecules to do what they do.I was saying that information is necessary for them to do what they do.Are you saying that no information is required for a new cell to be created that contains an exact duplicate of the DNA of every other cell in your body?Where does the information in the new cell DNA come from?Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that I have billions of cells in my body and each of them contain a copy of me.Is this correct?I guess I need someone to explain what information is, and where it comes from.The biggest question is does information occur naturally?ORDoes it require Intelligence to produce the information?Is design and pattern the same thing?How can we know that my DNA in each cell contains a copy of me?As you can see I still have a lot of questions.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, Are you saying that the universe as we know it has not always existed?ORAre you saying the elements that compose the universe had a beginning to exist?If the latter how did they begin to exist?Was it an accident?ORWas it caused by an intelligent being? If it did not come from non-existence then it had to exist in some form. Why would intelligence be needed when there is a law in effect that gives that result. But that is what this thread is about, so how is it irrelevant or unimportant?Either the laws of Physics was given by an intelligent designer or they just happened by accident prior to expansion. Then by all means present those options. And you have evidence that there are laws that have been created by accidents. Yes/No That is the discussion isn't it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi subbie, Modifying a known genome and implanting that cell is not creating life.No more than me taking a cabinet made by a specific cabinet company and modifying it and then calling it a new cabinet.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi WK, What would be your definition of information that is contained in DNA?You mentioned pattern just above.Would you agree that all pattern is not design by Nature or otherwise?Would you agree that Nature does have oraginizing properties?Would you agree that not all patterns are designed?Would you agree that all designs have patterns?What is the difference in a pattern and a design that is the question.The Luray Caverns in Virginia has stalagmites hanging from the ceiling and stalactites which build from the floor up. They have beautiful patterns formed totally naturally: nobody had to design that Cavern. It naturally happened.A tornado funnel cloud occurs naturally without anyone desiging it. All it takes is the right weather conditions.Snowflakes: every one is different, but nobody has to design a snowflake.Water + cold air + gravity + wind + time gives you snowflakes.In a cavern water + minerals + gravity + time = stalactites adn stalagmites.Hot air + cold air + moisture + time = tornados and hurricanes.These are governed by something called Chaos theory, which is the study of how order forms naturally without design.Some things that are designed.Music exists in two forms. The symboiic form of the notes on a piece of paper. And also in the physical form which is the vibration in the ear. They are equivalent but different.As you read this information on your computer screen it is the symbolic presentation of the code the processor is processing. So we have the symbolic and a reality.So in design there is a representation of the thing in addition to the thing itself.All information is based on language as you cannot symbolically represent something without language.Somebody has to create information.I created the post in which you are reading this information, it was transmitted over the internet. You can make as many exact copies as you desire of this information. You can print it, or store it on your hard drive the message will remain the same.But the information I see on my screen is the same information you see on your screen, so the message does not change whether it is printed or stored on a hard drive.Thus the information is separate from the media that it comes in.All information requires a thought process.I will stop here and let you correct my many mistakes. Which would require information to be added.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi subbie, True of many but not for me.I am a contractor and for 30 years I designed cabinets and manfactured them in a cabinet shop.Therefore for me to modify a cabinet made by someone else would mean that I was stealing his/her design and making it my own by a slight modification. We call that infringment of a patten.So for them to create life they must supply the raw material design the cell and insert the information not modify existing information that has been provided by some other designer and inserting it in an existing cell designed by some other designer.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar Help me get this straight.The universe has not always existed.It did not begin to exist because of an accident.It was not made to begin to exist by an intelligent being.It is utter nonsense, that if it has not always existed in some form and it did not begin to exist out of non-existence for no reason and that it was not caused by an intelligent being, yet the universe exists.How did the universe begin to exist?The universe exists.
OR
At least we think it exists. If that is the case what exists? Then what controlled the expansion beginning with the start of the expansion?I still think an intelligent designer in control is the best answer.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Ringo, Why?Everybody else talks about it. Source Source Source SourceSeems like I am not the only one who needs their thinking corrected.These folks say there is information, instructions contained in DNA that is required for replication. Are you saying a grain of sand contains information of how to reproduce itself?Can a grain of sand process information? I have billions of cells that die each day. Those billions of cells are replaced each day. The new ones are not created by the dying ones but they contain the same information.How is that?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, If the designer is not in control why do we have to figure out how the designer did it?I still don't understand if the universe has not always existed in some form how it could exist today.Unless it was caused to begin to exist by some unknown process out of non-existenceEither the universe has always existed in some form.ORThe universe began to exist out of non-existence.I still go with the idea that it has always existed in some form and was assemblied into the present form by some event.I believe that event is best explained by an intelligent designer.The concept that the universe began to exist by itself without cause, out of non-existence does not seem possible or logical. All those ideas I can find to read about require existence to exist for the universe to begin to exist.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi subbie, Such as the bounce theory, or the string theory.That equalsThe universe existing in some form prior to this universe. Time is a concept of man devised to measure existence.Existence is. I don't suppose there was a creator.I know there was a creator.Science has proved there was a creator.The universe had a beginning to exist.ORIt has always existed in some form.Science says the universe began to exist 13.7 billion years ago.It could not exist without being created by my God or the god of science. Be it an instanton or whatever something had to create this universe if it began to exist.So I will go with the intelligent designer rather than believing in the story that has been told here over the last few years.You know the one where we don't know where the universe came from it just is. It did not appear out of non-existence. There was an instanton or some other particle that appeared in a non-existence vaccum and expanded into the universe we see today.That story doesn't make any sense at all.And I am the looney tune around here.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, The Bible version tells me a lot more than the scientific version I get around here tells me.I ask where did the universe come from?Best answer "we don't know".Other answers, "it just is". And "why can't it just be"?When you guys find the answer you will find God the intelligent designer and creator of this universe.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Ringo, But you said the grain of sand can not reproduce itself. Thus it does not pass the information in itself as DNA does.DNA can pass the information contained in it to a copy of itself. Because most of them are produced in the bone marrow.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi crash, For there to be time existence is required. Time can not begin to exist if there is no existence. Just as the universe can not begin to exist unless there is existence.There is no way either time or the universe can begin to exist in or from non-existence.Therefore some intelligent designer had to exist for anything to have a place to exist. The eternal existence had to provide the place for time and the universe to exist in.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, But I already know how it was done. God the intelligent designer explains it in the manuel.He even explains dark matter and dark energy but no one is interested. They just keep on looking.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Ringo, But a pattern and DNA information are two different things.A snowflake has a pattern and no 2 are alike. Every cell in my body contains a copy of me. That is design. I know what you said. But I can not get confirmation from anywhere.I do know The salt crystal can grow only by taking from the environment material of the same composition as itself.But reproduce itself I can't find that information.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."