|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,915 Year: 4,172/9,624 Month: 1,043/974 Week: 2/368 Day: 2/11 Hour: 1/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Existence | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jaderis Member (Idle past 3456 days) Posts: 622 From: NY,NY Joined: |
ICANT writes: Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes: Apparently ICANT does not accept the time dilation predicted by Special Relativity due to relative motion between frames. ICANT don't believe time can be dilated. Dilated meaning streached or expanded. You can not streach time like you can bubble gum. Time is a concept of man. A concept can not be streached. An object can be streached or shortned. What kind of an object is time? So could you give me a definition of the time that you are streaching when you talk about time dilation? God Bless, Do you not believe that a period of time for tax cuts or EPA standards can be extended or ended? What about a speech which is supposed to last 5 minutes but the speaker has only 4 in his head and is told to "stretch it out?" What is your deal with definitions? Are you not familiar with language and the evolution of? Etymology? Idioms? You're obviously not familiar with the scientific uses of these words, but it's baffling to me that you are unfamiliar with the colloquial uses. "You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London "Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You can use drugs to dilate your mind.
You can use a Taylor Series to dilate a mathematical function. You can dilate a claim into an argument. You can dilate the stupidity ICANT spews by responding to him.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jaderis,
Jaderis writes: Do you not believe that a period of time for tax cuts or EPA standards can be extended or ended? Sure I believe a deadline that has been set by a person or government can be extended by hours, days, weeks, months or indefinitely. I even believe the definition of a second could be changed. But I do not believe you can take the duration that is presently used to represent a second and make it cover a period of duration that lasted 1.25 seconds, without changing the definition of a second. In other words you can't streach duration you can only measure it by whatever system is set in place to measure duration.
Jaderis writes: What is your deal with definitions? Words have meanings. A definition tells you what a specific word means. Do you have a definition for time?
quote:Source quote:Source quote:Source quote:Source Thus time is a measuring system that man set up to measure the duration of events or the duration between events. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Time is a measuring system in exactly the same way that length is a measuring system.
That is, they are not measuring systems, but rather dimensions that can be measured. Your own definitions even support that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jaderis,
Jaderis writes: Or (again, as per your logic) all existence is eternal and your god has no special place. I am on record as saying that existence is eternal. I am on record as saying that the universe has always existed in some form. Science tells me that the universe has not always existed in the form we see it today. That is what string theory, BBT and many others have tried to explain that happened. Whatever caused the universe to begin to exist as it is today I would call God. And yes He claims to be responsible for everything that exists. My argument is that existence has eternally existed. If existence has not eternally existed it had to begin to exist. If there was non-existence how did existence begin to exist. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Just in case you missed this...
Taq writes:
This seems to contradict your 'gravatational force' theory. ICANT writes:
It has nothing to do with the gravitational force on the clock mechanism. Time ticks at different rates in different interial frames. This was confirmed in the Hafele-Keating experiment where both planes flew at the same altitude. The clocks went out of synch based on which direction they flew (east vs. west) compared to the stationary clock on Earth. The plane flying with the rotation of the Earth did not show as much time dilation as the plane flying against the rotation of the Earth. The effect of altitude is removed from this experiment. Time did not dilate the clock just slowed down due to less gravatational force exerted on the mechanism, and returned to normal when returned to earth.Do you agree?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Taq,
Taq writes: Your wife will witness a 2 year trip, but using the same clock she is using you will observe a much shorter trip. This difference in the passage of time increases as your velocity increases. If you are travelling at 0.99c a travel distance of one light year will take about 51 days by the clock used by the traveller. This has all been confirmed by the Hafele-Keating experiment that I linked to before. Then explain where the math is wrong. In Message 334 I said:
quote: In Message 307 to you I said:
[quote]A thought: I pull out my space cycle that I built in another thread and accelerate away from my wife at 1/2 c towards a planet that is exactly 1 light year including original acceleration to the half way point around the planet. She is 6 months younger than I am. I travel for two years which puts me 1 light year away half way into my turning around with no reduction in speed. The image of my turn around is 1 light year away from my wife so by the time the image of my turn around reachers her I am half way back. So she can observe all of my trip out but only half of my return trip which will seem to her that I am traveling at c when I am only traveling at 1/2 c. So she would view my out bound trip as 2 years and my return trip as 1 year, because she would miss half the return trip, because I was half way back when she saw my turn around. Thus we both would age 4 years during the trip. If the speed of c is constant how could I close the gap between our ages? [/qs] In Message 313 you answered the question with smoke and mirrors and this assertion:
Taq writes: The travel time would not be the same for both of you. Your wife would witness a 4 year trip. You would experience a shorter trip due to time dilation. You and your wife would be much closer in age after your trip. You then presented a chart:
You then asserted:
Taq writes: At 0.5c, a day to you would be 1.15 days to your wife, the difference being 0.15 days. Multiply that by 4 and by 365, the number of days that you are traveling at 0.5c, and you get 219 days. Your wife would actually age 219 days more than you during the journey. You never attempted to show where my math was wrong. So explain why the math says my spacebike trip would take a total of 1460.97 solar days to complete the trip yet I would make the trip in1241.97 solar days. That means I would have to get back 219 days before my spacebike did. That is magic. Show where the math is wrong. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If there was non-existence how did existence begin to exist.
Two half-existences combined to make a whole one.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes: This time dilation is a necessary consequence of the speed of light being the same for all observers. But does time dilation happen? You say yes. I say no. But that is neither here or there lets do the photon thought experiment in a vaccum.
crashfrog writes: But, light is apparently different. Suppose instead of a bullet, it's a photon. Your wife sees it pass the Earth at 1 c, the speed of light. But here's the thing - you also see it approach from your hindquarters at 1 c. Again, the isotropic nature of the speed of light is both mathematically inescapable and experimentally verified. But since speed is distance over time, the only way it works out that you and your wife see the speed of the photon as identical regardless of your individual velocities is if velocity itself has a corresponding effect on distance and time. And, experiments have verified that this is the case - your velocity of .5 c results in time slowing down for you personally, such that you experience things in other reference frames happen at increased rates. People looking into your reference frame from outside see things happening on your space bike at decreased rates. I divided up a light year into 24 periods for brevity of space. When I am 6/24's (1/4) of the first light year of my journey on my spacebike your photon leaves my wife at the speed of c. I am traveling at 93,000 mps and the photon is gaining on me at 186,000 mps according to you. That means the photon is traveling at 279,000 mps or it is not aproaching me at 186,000 mps, unless I have stoped. At that rate the photon would catch and pass me and travel a light year in 2/3 thirds of a light year, if the speed of light = 186,000 mps and is constant as we are told. Which is impossible. Here is the math. 1/24 of the first light year of my journey = 122,283,189,0002/24 of the first light year of my journey = 244,566,378,000 3/24 of the first light year of my journey = 366,849,567,000 4/24 of the first light year of my journey = 489,132,756,000 5/24 of the first light year of my journey = 611,415,945,000 6/24 of the first light year of my journey = 733,699,134,000 7/24 of the first light year of my journey = 855,982,323,000 the photon has traveled 366,849,567,000 8/24 of the first light year of my journey = 978,265,512,000 the photon has traveled 733,699,134,000 9/24 of the first light year of my journey = 1,100,548,701,000 the photon has traveled 1,100,548,701,000 10/24 of the first light year of my journey = 1,222,831,890,000 the photon has traveled 1,467,398,268,000 The photon has caught me and passed me as it was coming towards me at c. It continues away from me at c. 11/24 of the first light year of my journey = 1,345,115,079,000 the photon has traveled 1,834,247,835,00012/24 of the first light year of my journey =1,467,398,268,000 the photon has traveled 2,201,097,402,000 13/24 of the first light year of my journey =1,589,681,457,000 the photon has traveled 2,567,946,969,000 14/24 of the first light year of my journey = 1,711,964,646,000 the photon has traveled 2,934,796,536,000 15/24 of the first light year of my journey = 1,834,247,835,000 the photon has traveled 3,301,646,103,000 16/24 of the first light year of my journey = 1,956,531,024,000 the photon has traveled 3,668,495,670,000 17/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,078,814,213,000 the photon has traveled 4,035,345,237,000 18/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,201,097,402,000 the photon has traveled 4,402,194,804,000 19/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,323,380,591,000 the photon has traveled 4,769,044,371,000 20/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,445,663,780,000 the photon has traveled 5,135,893,938,000 21/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,567,946,969,000 the photon has traveled 5,502,743,505,000 22/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,690,230,158,000 the photon has traveled 5,869,593,072,000 The photon has traveled 1 light year in 16/24's of a light year. Which is impossible if you are correct that the photon is aproaching me at the speed of c and then leaving me at the speed of c. 23/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,812,513,347,00024/24 of the first light year of my journey = 2,934,796,536,000 the halfway point of my trip. If the speed of light is 186,000 mps, which we are told it is. The math and the theory are at odds. If you are right explain where the math is wrong. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined:
|
But does time dilation happen? You say yes. I say no. every physics department in the world say it does, but old-man ICANT says it doesn't. Hell, I'm convinced Unlimited arrogance and infinite stupidity - what a fantastic combination
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
But but but.......
Something isn't accelerating unless it is getting faster!!Time is measured by the Earth going round the Sun and atomic clocks accurate to 1 second within 3.7 billion years are incapable of measuring time accurately if you move them from one altitude to another. And it is the force of gravity on clocks that makes these incredibly accurate clocks so incredibly inaccurate. And there is an absolute time that ICANT knows but which no clock can accurately measure. And and and...... And so we go on (and on and on and on and on...)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
|
ICANT writes:
That is magic. Show where the math is wrong. God Bless, Hello ICANT, It isn't your math that is wrong. It's your physics that's way off. The short answer is that you haven't considered all of the implications of the constancy of the speed of light. I will note that the math in your message 334 is incompatible with that in your message 307. Your wive can in fact witness your entire trip. So Taq did indeed point out some errors in your math. I'd be willing to show you where your science goes wrong. Doing so would require quite a detailed post (possibly two posts) in which I demonstrate the implications of the speed of light being constant for you and your wife. Not much more than a constant speed of light is needed to demonstrate that time is experienced differently by you and your wife. The demonstration would require a appreciable effort on my part, so I need some assurance that you are actually interested in the answer. Quite frankly, I don't believe your request to show your error is sincere, but here's your opportunity to demonstrate otherwise. So, should I bother ICANT or are you just blowing smoke? Edited by NoNukes, : grammar
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Unlimited arrogance and infinite stupidity - what a fantastic combination Then be Mr. Fantastic and show where the math is wrong. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I can honestly say that, regardless of ICANT's intellectual honesty, there are others of us who would likely benefit from a lengthy post or two on relativity as it actually works with mathematical examples.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Strraggler,
Straggler writes: ...atomic clocks accurate to 1 second within 3.7 billion years are incapable of measuring time accurately... Clocks do not measure time. Clocks measure duration of events or duration between events. I have never said atomic clocks can not measure duration of events or duration between events to a pretty precice measurment. It is just man's concept of what that time is that I say the clock can't measure properly. And yes, according to the folks that build the clocks gravity does affect their ability to keep correct time. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024