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Author Topic:   The Ultimate Question - Why is there something rather than nothing?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 12 of 366 (624855)
07-20-2011 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by ZenMonkey
07-20-2011 11:23 AM


Re: Two Speculations
ZenMonkey writes:
Besides, if I remember correctly, there's so little matter in the universe and so much empty space that effectively, the universe doesn't exist.
This wins my vote.
Q: Why is there something rather than nothing?
A: There isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-20-2011 11:23 AM ZenMonkey has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 57 of 366 (625104)
07-21-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Black Cat
07-21-2011 11:54 AM


Black Cat writes:
William Lane Craig provides a concise answer to the above assertion.
Could you please link to the page where he says this, and not to a page where he mis-quote-mines Richard Dawkins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 11:54 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 12:34 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 62 of 366 (625113)
07-21-2011 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Black Cat
07-21-2011 12:34 PM


Black Cat writes:
Where does he "mis-quote-mine" Dawkins?
Wow.
You can't even respond to a whole sentence.
The Mis-Quote-Mining is the part that Dr. Craig claims is summarised by Richard Dawkins.
All of it.
But this is off topic.
Edited by Panda, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 12:34 PM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 1:16 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 73 of 366 (625145)
07-21-2011 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Black Cat
07-21-2011 1:16 PM


Black Cat writes:
If you're going to say he mis-quote-mined Dawkins, don't you have to show how he did so?
I have The God Delusion in front of me.
Which part would you like me to show you?
{abe}
The God Delusion
It also looks like Dr. Craig ripped most of the post from R.C. Metcalf.
So he is also a plagiarist.
It makes you proud to be a christian, doesn't it.
{abe}
Dr. Craig says that Richard Dawkins writes:
The most ingenious and powerful explanation is Darwinian evolution by natural selection.
Richard Dawkins actually writes:
The most ingenious and powerful crane so far discovered is Darwinian evolution by natural selection.
The part written by Richard Dawkins makes sense when it hasn't been quoted out of context.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 1:16 PM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Black Cat, posted 07-30-2011 11:06 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 79 of 366 (625244)
07-21-2011 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by IamJoseph
07-21-2011 9:24 PM


IamJoseph writes:
'I AM THE LORD I HAVE NOT CHANGED'.
These are the answers to the questions: "Who are you?" and: "Have you changed?".
Now try answering: "Why was there something rather than nothing?".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by IamJoseph, posted 07-21-2011 9:24 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by IamJoseph, posted 07-21-2011 11:07 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 106 of 366 (625546)
07-23-2011 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by IamJoseph
07-23-2011 9:35 PM


Re: Purpose
IamJoseph writes:
The buck stops at the second alphabet when we backtrack; the A is barred and elusive and represents the forbidden apple metaphor.
I am sure that you are unique in knowing what the fuck you are talking about.
What is the second alphabet?
What are we backtracking along?
What A are you referring to?
What is barring the A?
What is barred from the A?
How is the A elusive?
What is the A eluding?
What is the forbidden apple metaphor?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by IamJoseph, posted 07-23-2011 9:35 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by IamJoseph, posted 07-23-2011 10:32 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 110 of 366 (625553)
07-23-2011 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by IamJoseph
07-23-2011 10:32 PM


Re: Purpose
IamJoseph writes:
Which part was confusing?
I thought I made it clear with the questions I provided.
If you answer them, it will go a long way to ending my confusion.
What is the second alphabet?
What are we backtracking along?
What A are you referring to?
What is barring the A?
What is barred from the A?
How is the A elusive?
What is the A eluding?
What is the forbidden apple metaphor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by IamJoseph, posted 07-23-2011 10:32 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 12:05 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 112 of 366 (625562)
07-24-2011 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by IamJoseph
07-24-2011 12:05 AM


Re: Purpose
IamJoseph writes:
The seond alphabet refers to the Hebrew, namely Bet, beta in Greek, B in english.
Alphabet does not mean what you think it means.
What is your native language?
IamJoseph writes:
The verse begins with the second alphabet, and says IN THE BEGINNING GOD, namely the A refers to what is to do with origin and barred from our mind's knowing, this B alphabet being a square with only one side left open - that of going forward and whatever is behind or before being out of our mind's grasp. This is vindicated today.
I do not think you understand half of the words you use.
Talking to you is pointless - you do not speak English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by IamJoseph, posted 07-24-2011 12:05 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 117 of 366 (625694)
07-25-2011 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Chuck77
07-25-2011 4:33 AM


Re: frako the follower
Chuck77 writes:
Have you ever asked God? How do you know he's dodgy? You listen to too much george carlin frako.
If you had actually clicked on Frako's link rather than going off the deep end, then you could have avoided looking quite so stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Chuck77, posted 07-25-2011 4:33 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by bluegenes, posted 07-25-2011 6:24 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 123 of 366 (625711)
07-25-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by IamJoseph
07-25-2011 9:06 AM


Re: Purpose
IamJoseph writes:
I found the best efforts of my imagination cannot imagine a pre-universe scenario.
I gave your post a rating of 5.
All of it made sense - most of it I agreed with.
Please continue to produce such clear and cogent arguments.
(No sarcasm intended.)
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 9:06 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by IamJoseph, posted 07-25-2011 9:35 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 151 of 366 (626613)
07-30-2011 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Black Cat
07-30-2011 11:06 AM


Black Cat writes:
It doesn't appear to me that W.L.C mis-represented Dawkins. He was summarizing Dawkins' arguments not quoting him directly.
Doctor Craig was not summarising Dawkins.
Doctor Craig claims he was quoting directly:
quote:
On pages 157-8 of his book, Dawkins summarizes what he calls "the central argument of my book." It goes as follows:
That was a lie.
Black Cat writes:
Can you please explain to me how how Craig's summarization sentence affected or distorted what Dawkins actually wrote?
It distorted what Dawkins had written by claiming it was what Dawkins had written, while it was in fact not what Dawkins had written.
This should not be difficult to understand.
If you claim that someone said something that they didn't say - then that is mis-quoting. It is lying.
Black Cat writes:
Is it because he didn't include the words "so far"?
No. It is because he included the words "On pages 157-8 of his book, Dawkins summarizes" - and then proceeds to make up what Dawkins had actually written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Black Cat, posted 07-30-2011 11:06 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 12:30 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 153 of 366 (626718)
07-31-2011 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Black Cat
07-31-2011 12:30 AM


Black Cat writes:
No, he didn't claim Dawkins had written that. From the introductory sentence it doesn't seem clear whther his intention was to quote directly or to summarize. W.L.C does not explicitly say that he intended to quote directly. That's something you're assuming based on your reading of the sentence.
You can't have it both ways.
Either the list is a direct quote from Dawkins' book or Dr. Craig is attacking a straw-man argument which he fabricated himself.
{abe}
quote:
This argument is jarring because the atheistic conclusion that "Therefore, God almost certainly does not exist" seems to come suddenly out of left field. You don't need to be a philosopher to realize that that conclusion doesn't follow from the six previous statements.
This shows the level of deceit.
Dr. Craig is criticising his own mis-quotes as if they are Dawkins' own words.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 12:30 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 1:26 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 155 of 366 (626723)
07-31-2011 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Black Cat
07-31-2011 1:26 AM


Black Cat writes:
All he did was replace "crane so far" with "explanation"
Is that all he did?
Really?
Let us compare and contrast, shall we?
Then we will see if all he did was replace 3 words...
Dr Craig writes:
The temptation is a false one because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer.
Richard Dawkins writes:
The temptation is a false one, because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer. The whole problem we started out with was the problem of explaining statistical improbability. It is obviously no solution to postulate something even more improbable. We need a 'crane', not a 'skyhook', for only a crane can do the business of working up gradually and plausibly from simplicity to otherwise improbable complexity.
Seems that you might have been wrong about what Dr. Craig replaced.
Let's look at another...
Dr Craig writes:
We don't have an equivalent explanation for physics.
Richard Dawkins writes:
We don't yet have an equivalent crane for physics. Some kind of multiverse theory could in principle do for physics the same explanatory work as Darwinism does for biology. This kind of explanation is superficially less satisfying than the biological version of Darwinism, because it makes heavier demands on luck. But the anthropic principle entitles us to postulate far more luck than our limited human intuition is comfortable with.
Wow! Dr. Craig has replaced and removed dozens of words.
How did you not know this?
I am starting to think that you have no knowledge of what Dawkins actually wrote.
Or maybe you support mis-quoting people out of context?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 1:26 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Black Cat, posted 08-02-2011 10:10 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 160 of 366 (627401)
08-02-2011 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Black Cat
08-02-2011 10:10 AM


Black Cat writes:
Again, there's no clear evidence that he intended to quote Dawkins directly.
I didn't claim that he did intend to quote Dawkins diectly.
In fact, I strongly suspect that he had every intention of mis-quoting Dawkins.
But, if he was going to argue against the summary then he should have quoted it directly.
Black Cat writes:
Second, his summation of Dawkins' main points is accurate, that can easily be seen from the quotes you provided.
His summary of Dawkin's summary is not accurate. That can easily be seen from the quotes I provided.
Black Cat writes:
Craig is not obligated to quote whole paragraphs based on what you feel he should inlude and not include.
Correct.
But he is obligated to not mis-quote and not quote-mine.
So, to summarise:
Dr. Craig has an ambiguous and misleading opening sentence.
He takes single sentences out of context.
He changes the wording of those sentences.
He argues against those sentences as if they are actually what Richard Dawkins had written.
If he was being honest he would have simply posted the complete summary - there is no reason not to.
I think he is simply lying for god.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Black Cat, posted 08-02-2011 10:10 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Black Cat, posted 08-03-2011 6:55 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3741 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 189 of 366 (627752)
08-03-2011 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Black Cat
08-03-2011 6:55 PM


Panda writes:
I didn't claim that he did intend to quote Dawkins directly.
This is a statement about the intentions of Dr. Craig. You can see this from the use of the word 'intend'.
Panda writes:
Doctor Craig claims he was quoting directly.
This is a statement about what Dr. Craig actually did.
-
It is no surprise that you think that Dr. Craig's summary of Dawkin's list is accurate: your grasp of English is not good enough to know any better.
I also notice that you have been unable to argue against Dr. A's detailed description of some of Dr. Craig's deceit (Message 161).
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Black Cat, posted 08-03-2011 6:55 PM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Black Cat, posted 08-03-2011 8:47 PM Panda has replied

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