Existence

Hi Taq, I can't figure out how to draw the inside of the car with the tools I have.God Bless,

It would just look like this:Y
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DNiether the laser nor the detector are moving within this reference frame.

As is the case for all coordinate systems, the driver's reference frame extends to infinity and includes all locations inside and outside of the car.Reference frames are not contained within other reference frames. Every event is space time has coordinates in every reference frames. So no reference frame "resides" within other reference frames. Each reference frame covers all of space.All of the above have been explained to you many times, and were evident from the presentation in the Susskind video. Why do you continue to ask questions that have no meaning at all? Yes I would, but the pointing direction would be different in different reference frame and observers at rest in other reference frames would agree that the pen points in the direction of the laser pen, despite that direction being different from the one I observer.I refer you to my demonstration in Message 1 regarding the 3 millimeter light path within the interior of the light pen. I demonstrated that the direction of the light pen was the same as the direction of the light beam.Again, your questions simply tell everyone that you don't know what a reference frame is. Angles, directions, momenta, and particle energies, are simply not consistent across different reference frames. Your insistence that they must be is wrong.But prove me wrong. Cite a reference supporting your alternative position.

Not quite.I think your answer is based on the old experiment. You are responding to a thought experiment where sensor S and detector D are both mounted on the tracks.But you are right about the central issue here. You don't need to show the interior of a car to show the driver's reference frame. A simple X/Y coordinate drawing is all that you need. You can use the same drawing to show either the car's reference frame or the driver's reference frame.

Oh, I didn't realize it was a different experiment. Whoops. This little animation that Taq provided us with is great!:http://einstein.byu.edu/~masong/htmstuff/Clock2.html

Nice deceptive job of selective quoting, ICANT. A fuller extract would have made clear that "that topic" was inertial reference frames. This is at least the third time I've caught you doing this. Presenting a quote out of context like this is not honorable behavior. Perhaps you are simply extremely negligent in a way that does not reflect yourself in an honorable light, but I no longer believe that your selective quoting is accidental.Here is a quote with more complete context.

quote:

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As measured in any inertial frame of reference, light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c that is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body.

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Quoting this statement makes you look silly because you never apply the "As measured in any reference frame" portion of the quotation. Well it as at least some progress that you no longer try to promote that goofy interpretation of postulate #2. 1000 more NoNukes credits. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Hi NoNukes, So there is really no such thing as a reference frame.There is only a coordinate system in which there is an xyz coordinate that can be measured from the observer or object. The laser pen is attached to the frame on the rear of the car pointed toward the track the car is traveling on at 0.5 c.Now tell me or present an example of an observer that will observe the laser pen pointing in a different direction than at a 90 angle relative to the travel of the car on the tracks. Your non answers shows me that you are not willing to give an answer that can be confirmed or refuted.So I will try again and ask one question at a time.If the car is traveling at zero meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats, sitting on the track with the laser pen pointed at the D in my diagram and the laser pen emitts a pulse, will that pulse hit the D (detector)? Yes/NoOh I forgot you have already confirmed that the pulse will hit the D and the light will flash. So ignore that question.Let me ask the question that really gives me a problem.If the car is traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats, on the track with the laser pen pointed at the D's and S's in my diagram and the laser pen emitts a pulse directly above the D, will that pulse hit the D (detector)? Yes/NoOh I forgot you already asserted the pulse will hit the S instead of the D it is directly over when the pulse is emitted. So ignore that question.So I will settle for an answer to the following question considering this quote.

quote:

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Newton's first law of motion is often stated as

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An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

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SourceDoes this law of Newton's require that the pulse emitted from the laser pen travel in the same direction the pulse is emitted in, unless the pulse is acted upon by an unbalanced force? Yes/NoIf your answer is 'No' please present your argumentation to support your view.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes, Oh I always consider that portion of the quotation.I just have never found what it is that the light is traveling c relative too.Einstein never said and you did not tell me when I asked you the question what the light was propagated at c relative too.Wouldn't that be the first thing required to come to a correct conclusion? So, does Newton's first law require that the pulse emitted from the laser pen travel in a straight line in the direction the laser pen is pointed when the pulse is emitted?God Bless,

Hi CS, But the experiment I am talking about is the one where the car has a frame mounted on the back with the laser pen at 4 feet from the S's and D's, pointed at the S's and D's that are attached to the center of the tracks, with the car traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats.God Bless,

Hi CS, I thought an inertial reference frame had x, y, and z coordinates to be an inertial reference frame. The laser pen nor the detector exist in what you have drawn.The only thing that exists is the D which I assume is representing the driver and the Y representing what the driver could see directly in front of himself.God Bless,

Whatever, man. You're not interested in learning anything nor replying to the posts that are explanatory and instead want to focus on insignicant things that obfuscate your misunderstandings.That's not a game I'm interested in playing.

When you're looking at a coordinate system on a computer screen, unless otherwise noted, the z coordinate extrends perpindicular outwards from the screen. Y was the laser and D was the detector.But again, you're focusing on the irrelevant stuff instead of addressing the explanations that expose your misunderstandings.

Of course not. While the statement is true, it is not a consequence of the first law, but of how laser pen's are designed.I've answered the question several times. The direction the laser pointer is pointed is not the same in the car frame of reference as it is in the salt flat's frame of reference. So it's pointless to pretend that this question leads to a confirmation of your position.I'm preparing yet another demo to illustrate frames of reference. I'm sorry for exposing you to that video that reminded you so much of your past algebra classes. That must have been painful.

Duplicate.Edited by NoNukes, : remove duplicate

Hi CS, The detector is mounted to the track and therefore is motionless within all frames if we ignore the Earth and it's movement which is less that the width of a human hair in the amount of time it takes the pulse to reach the detector after emitted from the laser pen.The laser pen is attached to a frame on the rear of the car and is therefore doing whatever the car is doing which is traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats. The tracks are traveling at zero meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats, as they are attached to the Salt Lake Flats.Since the driver is in the car traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats so the driver is traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats.That means the driver as well as the laser pen is traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the detectors and sensors, which are attached to the track. The laser pen is attached to the car and does whatever the car does.The detector is mounted on the tracks the car is traveling over at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats.If you want to say the car is not moving and the tracks with the detector is moving at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the car you can. You get the same results as the distance increases between the detector and the car by 149,896,229 meters per second.The point in the vacuum the pulse is emitted is also moving at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the car. You get the same results as the distance increases between the point the pulse is emitted and the car by 149,896,229 meters per second. What is wierd about the pulse hitting the detector?Newton's first law says the pulse will travel in a straight line at c unless an unbalanced force is exerted upon the pulse.That being true the pulse will hit the detector every time the laser pen emitts a pulse directly above the detector, and all observers that can observe the pulse emitted from the laser pen will observe the pulse to hit the detector. As long as the pulse is not emitted from the laser pen you would be correct.The problem is the pulse is emitted into a vacuum at c directly above the detector traveling in a straight line the laser pen was pointed when the pulse was emitted. If the car is not moving the pulse will hit the detector.If the car is moving the pulse will still be emitted into a vacuum at c directly above the detector traveling in a straight line the laser pen was pointed when the pulse was emitted. The pulse will still hit the detector. The car moving at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake Flats does not cause the pulse to miss the detector as the pulse travels in a straight line according to Newton from the point emitted in the direction it is emitted.Since there is no force in the vacuum to alter the direction of the travel of the pulse it will hit the detector everytime the laser pen emitts a pulse directly above the detector.The earth will move less than the width of a human hair in the amount of time it takes for the pulse to travel the 4 feet to hit the detector, so I don't think that will have any effect on where the pulse hit's the detector.God Bless,