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Author | Topic: Do Christians Worship Different Gods? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes:
quote: Not even if God made it a condition that sinning would lead to death at his pleasure (whether you believe he made it a condition or not)? That would be an odd position for someone to take - that God should make promises and not keep them! -
quote: As if that would make a darn bit of difference..
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Panda writes: What makes you think that god would (or should) keep his promises? It's not what I think that matters. If he promises consequences for actions then he is justified in delivering on those promise if he chooses. It's a question of sovereignty.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes: It makes a big difference, I at least would be behaving morally even when God is not. According to your own standard? A privilege granted you for a time.
And yes, if a God makes that a condition then that God is so far below MY standard of morality as to be unworthy of my worship. Again, that's an opinion you are free to hold, for a time. The issue is whether God is justifed in killing sinners or not.
It goes directly to the heart of this thread. I would not worship such a God. We are charged to fight the GOOD fight. We may not win, but we must fight. As above. The freedom to do as you please is something granted you until such a time as it is granted no more. Such is sovereignty.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Dr. A writes: I'd like to add my puzzlement to Panda's. Apparently you can believe in a god who can sanction actual genocide but who won't break a promise 'cos that would be bad. The genocide is the product of a promise: the wages of sin is death. I see no conflict.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Dr. A writes: So, let's see if I've got this right. If I attempt to commit some abominable crime, and I succeed, then I was doing God's will? Is there a particular reason why you don't supply any context?
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes: At least I will know that I acted morally. Alas, not. Like I say, the God I market will have withdrawn the freedom you currently have to construct your own morality in the manner you see fit. And in withdrawing that freedom, he will know that he is acting righteously.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by iano, : exchange morally for righteously. I'm not sure God can be said to be a moral agent. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Dr. A writes: The problem, iano, is that since committing genocide is commonly thought to be worse than breaking a promise, it is hard to feel certain that someone who did the former would cavil at the latter. The problem, Dr. A. is that genocide is commonly thought to be a crime, wrong, unrighteous, unjust. However, when I use the term, I mean: "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" (wiki) ..which is devoid of moral commentary. If not assuming a negative moral element to God's genocide (for that is under discussion) you're back to a God who is merely fulfilling his promises
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Dr. A writes: The context is that I was replying to your post. No then.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes: Bullshit. If he believes that he will only be lying to himself. Not an attribute of the God I'm marketing I'm afraid.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Dr. A writes: Yup. Are you a complete moral vacuum? It would take a little more than assuming the position under discussion (genocide always wrong) to answer that question..
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Panda writes: Why would it be an odd position, unless you expect god to keep his promises? Why do you expect god to keep his promises? I'm sovereign, I'm demonstrably capable of delivering on my promise, I direct you in the way you should go or else. I'm pointing an AK47 at you and not giving you any reason to suppose that I am anything but serious. Wouldn't it be odd to work on the premise that I wouldn't keep my promise?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jar writes: Genocide is always morally wrong. And if you're not a moral agent (the God I'm marketing isn't) then what?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Dr. A writes: How do you know. You say that genocide is "a way God used to achieve his ends." So if I commit genocide, how can you be sure that that isn't a way God is using to achieve his ends? I don't know. Bear in mind that the answer "No then" was an answer to your complete question:
quote: No then. You are not right in concluding you are doing God's will when you commit some abominable crime. You might be, you might not be. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Jar writes: Then Genocide is still always wrong. In what way if not morally so? Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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iano Member (Idle past 1970 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. AdminPD Panda writes: Imagine an armed robber pointing an AK47 at you and not giving you any reason to suppose that he is anything but serious. If he promised that he would not kill you as long as you give him the combination to the safe - do you think he will keep his promise?He is demonstrably capable of delivering on his promise, but do you think he actually will? As long as he his not giving me any reason to suppose he is not serious about letting me live if I obey then I'd have reason to think he would keep his promise. He'd also want to be wearing a balaclava or some other way in which I wouldn't be able to recognise him Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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