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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
ICANT writes: Where does the text say anything about knowing right from wrong? Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't do anything wrong? Or that they did wrong without knowing it? What are you getting at ICANT?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
On what basis should he be expected to obey rather than disobey God?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
ICANT writes: Now if you saw all these things and the being that you saw do them told you not to eat the fruit of a specific tree, would you disobey that being? I might do. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't you?
ICANT writes: The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 had every right to believe that God could and would do exactly what He said He would do if he ate the fruit from the forbiden tree. Pardon my biblical ignorance but what exactly did He say that he would do?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: Pardon my biblical ignorance but what exactly did He say that he would do? ICANT writes: Cause the consequences of disobedience to occur. The consequences for disobedience was death. Can you quote exactly where God said that? I want to know what the bible actually tells us he said. Then what did the serpent say? Now - Bearing in mind that Adam and Eve are at this point unable to distinguish right from wrong - How are they supposed to decide what to do?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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J writes: What Adam and Eve knew about what was good to do and what was not good to do came directly from God. What is the point of the tree of knowledge if they already had all this knowledge about what was good and bad already? Edited by Straggler, : Fix quotes
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
ICANt writes: God specifically told the man, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". Sentence was declared and would be carried out upon disobedience by eating the fruit. And how do A&E know that death is a "bad" thing? In fact if death is some sort of eternal ethereal existence why is death a bad thing? Where do you think you will be once you die ICANT?
Straggler writes: Then what did the serpent say? ICANT writes: The serpent did not say anything to the man. I am detecting some slipperiness here!! What did the serpent say (to either of them)?
ICANT writes: Just like I should have known when my grandmother told me if I touched the red sides of the wood heater it would burn me. Grandma told me if I touched it that it would burn me. God told the man if he ate the fruit from the forbidden tree he would die. I did not have to know right from wrong to know the heater would burn me and neither did the man have to know right from wrong to know he would die if he disobeyed. But why would Adam or Eve think that dying was a bad thing? My grandma told me that fire was dangerous and that I shouldn't go near it. When I was 4 I stuck my hand in the fire because I wanted to find out for myself. Put someone in a room with a big red button marked "danger", tell them that something terrible will happen if they press that big red button and you can bet your arse that they will dwell on it, ponder over it and then press the big red button of doom. Such is human nature......
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Hoo writes: It would be more like a big red button that said "hasa diga eebowai". WTF!! - Did you just say "hasa diga eebowai"....? You CANNOT say "hasa diga eebowai"!!! Are you frikkin crazy? Do you have any idea what happens when you say "hasa diga eebowai"....?????!!!!!!! NNNNNNOOOooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!
Hoo writes: But ICANT sells a genesis where there was no such thing as death before they ate the fruit ICANT believes some strange shit. Even by the crazed standards of biblical literalists he is a shroom and mescaline merchant where others are mere dopeheads. According to ICANT there are literally two versions of Genesis and thus literally two versions of mankind, two Adams etc. etc. etc. It's wacky gone mad....
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: But why would Adam or Eve think that dying was a bad thing? Iano writes: Because he understood plain English (or whatever language was spoken then)? Well that is an interesting question in itself. What language did Adam and Eve supposedly speak?
Iano writes: I don't mean that he understood death in the detailed sense we're able to appreciate it by. Rather (we must assume) he understood dying as being something negative/unpleasant/to be avoided. It wouldn't have been hard for God to go about educating him in this. But I thought the Chrsitian notion of an afterlife involved good and positive things? I am intrigued to know where it is that you think Adam is now that he is (presumably) dead? It is so terrible for him?
Iano writes: If we don't assume he a working knowledge of this concept then we can't assume he had a working knowledge of any of the other concepts which are represented by words such as: On,this,day,you,will,surely, etc. - in which case debate is pretty much pointless. Well we are assuming for the sake of argument people made from dirt, a talking snake, an apple that imparts knowledge and a whole host of other (frankly) outlandish things. But I still don't see how God could make death sound like a bad thing for Adam without lying? Isn't Adam in paradise/heaven/whatever now?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So God said don't eat the apple and the snake said do.
How on Earth were Adam or Eve supposed to know which one was right and which one wrong?
ICANT writes: So humans have a nature to try things when they are told not to do them. Where do you think that nature came from? I think that is an interesting question for evolutionary psychology.Where do you think that nature came from? ICANT writes: Or would they be exercising their freewill by choosing to press that big red button? Oooohh ICANT if you knew what the latest research told us about about our misconceptions of freewill I suspect you would have an apoplectic fit.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Iano writes: If God dropped two big stones on Adams big toes such that it caused him to yell in pain (but not cause permanent damage) and then said that death was 10000 (or whatever) times more painful than that then Adam would have an idea of death as a negative thing without God lying to him. But death doesn't have to be painful. Why would God make Adam's death painful in this way? I am still perplexed as to why Adam (or Eve) would be averted from their actions by the "threat" of death. If death isn't such a bad state of being then it isn't a deterrent unless God is willing to lie about it. And if it is a terrible state of being then we can only conclude that Adam and Eve are suffering these perpetual torments even as we speak. Either way - I don't see why they would have any basis for believing God over the snake with regard to the whole apple conundrum.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
You are one pedantic son of a.....
God said one thing. The serpent said the opposite. Without the sort of knowledge that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" provides how are Adam or Eve going to know which one to listen to?
ICANT writes: Whether it was right or wrong is irrelevant. How can it be original "sin" without being wrong? Is it possible to sin in manner that is "right"....? This would seem to be the crux of the whole issue and very far from irrelevant.
ICANT writes: The information was included in the DNA. If the psychological proclivity to press the Big Red Button marked "Do not press. Something terrible will happen" is innate in humans we didn't really have any meaningful choice at all did we? It was inevitable.....
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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If I sent my children (aged 5 and 1) out into the world where I know there to be devious entities (e.g. talking serpents) that are going to prey on their inevitable naivety I wouldn't just expect them to obey my instructions because of my manly commanding voice.
In fact until they are worldly wise enough I wouldn't (and don't) send them out anywhere unsupervised by an adult. Your description of God qualifies him as a grossly negligent parent. Which when you consider what he did to his favourite son probably shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Was disobeying god a sin?
Is sin evil?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Is it a sin to disobey God?
Is sin evil? God said one thing. The serpent said the opposite. Without the sort of knowledge that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" provides how are Adam or Eve going to know which one to listen to?
ICANT writes: The crux of the whole issue is did man obey God or disobey God. Well either God or the serpent were going to be upset by mans action. So - How was man to decide which way to go on this issue? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
PD writes: This thread isn't about analyzing the creation stories. Just seen this. Fair enough.
PD writes: Do you consider the idea of original sin to be important to Christianity and why? Well it depends which flavour of Christianity one is considering. It seems pretty fundamental to Catholicism for example.
PD writes: Do you consider the creation stories to be important to Christianity and why? Again it depends which particular Christian version of God one is considering. To evangelical creationists/literalists - Yes. Obviously. To a certain breed of wishy-washy-verging-on-deistic Anglicans - Barely at all.
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