|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,927 Year: 4,184/9,624 Month: 1,055/974 Week: 14/368 Day: 14/11 Hour: 2/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: animals on the ark | |||||||||||||||||||
John Paul Inactive Member |
quote: John Paul:What? Are you trying to put all species on the Ark? That wasn't the case. Many species went extinct because of the Flood and many new species have 'evolved' since. Read Noah's Ark:A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe and Not By Chance by Dr. Lee Spetner for a better perspective on rapid speciation and how it occured(ocurs) in the Creation model. BTW, I will get back to you on the whale thingy later this evening (I hope)... ------------------John Paul
|
|||||||||||||||||||
LudvanB Inactive Member |
quote: JP,you know as well as i do that they just plucked those numbers right out of thin air. There's no evidence that there even was an ark(Ron Wyatts boat shaped mud print in hungary was debunked by ACTUAL SCIENTISTS almost a decade ago),so lets not waste time in discussing how much food they brought into a non-existant ark. The hebrew story of Noah's ark is an ancient sumerian legend recycled out of the epic of gilgamesh. There has floods in many areas of the world,thats not in question. There is also much evidence of a mesopotamian flood a few thousands of years back,which may well be at the root of the gilgamesh flood legend,which wa sinturn recycled by the babylonians,then by the hebrew and finaly by the christians YECS who today are writing book of feasibility about mythological boats...
|
|||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5226 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
But didn't God instruct Noah to take on board ALL mammals? (Not his words, I know).
Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
quicksink Inactive Member |
quote: So where is your indisputable evidence that life could not have arisen from inanimate matter?Do you even possess an understanding of this process? quote: Where in the Bible does it state that animals that migrated to the ship were no boarded?
quote: Give me proof that noah, living in the bronze age, possessed the tools to mechanically process meat and other foods
quote: Why don’t you give us the numbers that would explain the points brought up by schrafinator in a few posts above (in a number of posts) or did those creationist saints not provide any?
quote: Tell me how- this forum is for debating the facts- give them to me.
quote: Really? Give me the evidence to suggest that rapid fossilization could have occurred under natural conditions. If this were possible, then we would see the fossils of humans (all those humans that were buried outside a coffin) and other modern mammals- we don’t. but perhaps you have new evidence of the contrary?
quote: Is that your best response? Demand evidenceDo some research- there are thousands of articles on the mutual relationship between fig fruits and fig wasps. If you took the time to do a little searching, you’d learn how long this relationship would need to develop there’s a hole in the fig for the wasp to pass through, for god’s sake. quote: Hundreds of creationists and creationist sites. If you’d like me to direct you to one of these sites, I will, but for now I’m in a hurry.And what evidence do you have to suggest that the flood occurred this long ago- geological findings, archaeological digs, biblical passages, dating data? quote: The burden of proof does not rest on me. You prove that this is possible, then we can continue.
quote: Again- this resonse proves the feeblness of your rebuttles. The best you can do is demand a reference.Prove to me that it is possible. Give me some facts quote: Wrong based on what findings? What would suggest that a flood occurred 9000 years ago? Can you direct me to a creationist site that asserts this claim? C’mon, now. Produce something of scientific value, not worthless speculation.
quote: Once again, I dare you to give me evidence that your creationist model is correct.Ps- 9000 years ago, all civilizations were just beginning to emerge. Building an ark back then would have been impossible, unless you have evidence of the contrary. quote: Fine- now where’s that peer-reviewed paper to back it up?
quote: You seem to be changing theories when it suits you I have never met a creationist (out of the hundreds that I’ve met) that believes the flood occurred 9000 years ago- starating to get sticky, aren’t we?
[QUOTE]
quicksink:how noah and other biblical figures were able to live for 100s of yearsa, despite the finding of the contrary after the examination of mummies So your best answer is good genes, eh? That’s your best response?I don’t see evidence- I don’t see 600 year old people around today- and I don’t see you proving anything. quote: David blaine uses illusions to make it appear that he is doing magic- god defies the laws of physics.
quote: Sorry, I don’t recall any evidence of that- show me that it is feasable for the continents to split in 6000-10000 years, or even in a thousand years. If this were true, tectonic activity would be so intense, we would be experiencing earth-quakes of indescribable magnitude every few weeks. And we would see the himilayas growing by a foot or more a year. We see one inch of growth a year.And maybe you could bring up a biblical reference that indicatates a single super-continent I haven’t seen any of those passages. Once again, you’re throwing unbased claims at me. You obviously have little or no knowledge of what you’re implying.
quote: [roll eyes] here we go again.It doesn’t take a masters in zoology to know that penguins cannot tolerate intense heat. Now the biblical stories take place in the mid-east that would make us believe that the penguins would have to migrate to the desert- or noah would have to sail to antarctica. quote: Now wait- where does it mention in the Bible that he hired men to sail the seas to find him animals that they had no knowledge of in those days?Another example of rhetoric. quote: What proof do you have that there is no natural mechanism that removes salt from the ocean?Your response confirms my belief that you have not an inkling of knowledge in the scientific field. If you had taken the time to research the issue, you would find that salt is constantly being taken from the ocean- here is a site that addresses your issue directly http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/salt.htm take the time to look through it, and stop making your very ignorant claims. quote: I assume that you are implying that there was a single land mass in this time, that has now split. You saw my previous post, I am sure.
quote: So first you claim that in the day of the flood, fish could tolerate these changes, and then, when that is destroyed, you retreat to your book.Tell ya what- find me some evidence on the net, or quote this sacred book of yours. quote: Do you know what a coral core is?Judging by your posts, you don’t. your first claim was that the earth is old enough to accommodate coral cores. Tehn once you realized that coral cores are 40000 years old, you claimed that god created them mature Well, you could believe that. Or you could believe that coral cores are one of many pieces of evidence that indicate the earth is older than the bible says. Give your answer to a scientist, and he’d laugh at your arrogance. You claim creationism is science, and yet you give this wild and completely unscientific claim. And BTW- are you familiar with the concept of Occam’s Razor? [QUOTE] quicksink: how the americans and chinese and egyptians, not to mention their fabulous structures, survived... John Paul: What structures and how do you know they were built before the Flood?[quote] the mayan and egyptian pyramids, the buildings of the chinese dynasty, and, from the site http://www.kidport.com/RefLib/WorldGeography/Greece/Greece.htm " Greece is one of the oldest civilizations, dating back over 5000 years. " these buildings were dated with a number of methods. 1. carbon dating 2. tree-ring dating 3. ancient records (geneolgy, refernces to lunar eclipses and the like) all of these corroborate one another. basically, they give roughly the same day. quote: Two words- unadulterated arrogance. Tree-ring dating is used to determine the date of such things as floods and fires, which may or may not have been recorded by ancient civilizations.And you haven’t addressed the other dating methods either. quote: and all these people believe in jesus, or are they defending their own holy books, which would, by the way, contradict the bible.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"i thought there was a nuclear winter during the flood. now i do understand that the heat was coming from undergorund (plate tectonics), but how did the poles melt."
--There was a slight nuclear winter and a deafening heat displacement. The melting of the poles would have been the first occuring, of course, by the effects of subduction and friction by this means, along with magmatic upflow in the mid-oceanic ridges. this at the same time warming to oceans and boiling them away in some areas, would have ofcourse melted the ice caps, especially the arctic because if I am not mistaken there is a subduction zone right under the cap. This evaporation of the water would in-turn create an extreamly saturated atmosphere. As I am working on now the model of such an event and along with the effects of meteoric impact dust and volcanic cloud condensation nuclei. At points in the atmosphere and the structure of the H2O it will reflect light instead of naturally absorb it being a green-house gas. This along with the effects of meteoric dust injection into the high troposphere and stratosphere in the same instance. "if i recall, you said that a nuclear winter would have ensued during the flood that would have explained the ice ages that supposedly occured 30000 or so years ago."--Actually its supposedly 10,000-12,000 years ago for the uniformitarian set date for the previous ice age. Though I place it at the time of the flood. See above. ------------------
|
|||||||||||||||||||
quicksink Inactive Member |
Here are the three types of responses that i've gotten from paul
1. peer-reviewed reference 2. that book covered it, i think 3. utterly unsubstantiated utterings (i loved that.) i also see this pattern with other creationists... gee- could this mean that there are no good answers?
|
|||||||||||||||||||
TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Really? How so?"
--Because of the factor of what the abating water will take from the ground, and what it in the same instance, will leave behind. "No, there isn't a flood debris layer, even though this is exactly what every other flood ever recorded and observed has ever done to the debris."--No problem in that. (the Global Flood was a bigger event than the mississippi or the amazon, I don't think they involve consumption of the ice caps by heat and meteor impacts) "Do you think that if you repeat, "almost the whole column is flood originated" enough times that someone will believe you without evidence?"--No, I would love to see what it is you would be looking for as evidence that you would accept though. "So how can anything grow on land which has been mixed and churned so much that animals were buried way down under meters and meters of mixed together soil, subsoil, rock, silt, etc? There is a reason it's called topsoil, TC. Plants pretty much only grow in topsoil, but layer would have been obliterated and mixed completely with everything else."--What are the nutrients that would have not been present that vegetation needs to grow that would not have been present? ------------------
|
|||||||||||||||||||
TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"gee- could this mean that there are no good answers? "
--What is it you would like an answer to? ------------------
|
|||||||||||||||||||
TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"So, John Paul & TC, what do you have to say about my calculations for the hay and water requirements for just two horses for a year on the Ark?"
--Well for one, I don't think we have any water problems, unless they would have to drink the ocean a couple times over. Also, where are the calculations? I am sure that before you show them you would have taken into account the activity and metabolic degrade in any organisms (or horses) time on the ark. "You know, I should also mention that the space needed to store all of that hay would be much greater than the space needed today, because there were no automatic balers back then. Hay was kept loose, rather than compressed in a bale. That's why you see those old barns which have enormous, 3-story tall hay lofts every once in a while. The lofts were so large because all of the hay was stored loose."--What exists in hay that does not exist in another vegetation supplement that a horse needs? ------------------
|
|||||||||||||||||||
quicksink Inactive Member |
i would like a short answers to all the questions that i asked at the beginning of this thread
short answers'll do.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
Cobra_snake Inactive Member |
quote: This is not fair logic. First, evolutionists put forth evidence that is supposed to show that a global flood within the relatively recent past could not have occured. John Paul and TrueCreation are attempting to show that these evidences are not valid. It is not fair that you can provide evidence against a flood, but JP and TC can't provide reasons to believe that the flood was reasonable. Whether or not they do a good job in convincing you that a flood is reasonable is your decision, however, they have every right to try to show that a global flood was feasible.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
LudvanB Inactive Member |
quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||
LudvanB Inactive Member |
quote: They have every right to show whatever they want...i'm not discussing that. It is possible that the world flooded in large parts in the past but that would more likely have been the result of intensified solar activity raising global temperature and melting the ice caps over time (probably a few decades)...then,the survivors,moving to higher grounds could have told stories of floods left and right,which in turn became the legends we know of today. Of course there is no evidence for what i'm suggesting but neither is there any for what YECs are advancing about a global flood. I know that you can show many geological evidence of floods in many parts of the world and you can point to it and say "see...global flood". But when i ask the question "how can you tell that they all occured at once within a 10 months period BESIDE THE BIBLE",you all fall silent. But as i said,that was not my beef with JP's statement. He was quoting amounts of food brought aboard the ark when we have yet to establish through science that there even was an ark(Ron Wyatts fraudulent mud print has allready been identified as a hoaxe and the guy was reknown for planting evidence on the site). The only people who believe these thing are the people who absolutely WANT them to be true...for people like me,who have no vested interest either way,there has been nothing presented by YECs than can even be qualified as remotely convincing,while evolutionists present TONS of credible evidence to support their claims. But hey...if you can not only prove THEM wrong but also prove your side RIGHT,then i'll believe you over them...but you wont accomplish this by citing invented numbers about mythological boats...
|
|||||||||||||||||||
TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"LUD:TC,there simply is no way that such a rapid boiling off of all the earth's ocean as you need for your model to work wouldn't have raised the ambiant temperature of the earth by about 100 degrees celcius,making it unlivable."
--My Atmospheric science book would say otherwize... Lets show some knowledge in this feild and you tell me why your assertion is true by support. "Your subduction theory would have had to be of such an unprecendented magnetude as to defy the very laws of physics themselves...in other word,the only way it can work is as a miracle."--How so? "LUD:there have been several ice ages identidied in the geological records...7 if memory serves...the last one was 12000 years ago."--Actually I f my memmory serves, they give it as many as 17 ice ages, though from the reference, It gives no reason why, nor does it give any detailed information by the evidence for the dating of the ice age. All it does is say what scientists have concluded, not why they have concluded. ------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 03-09-2002]
|
|||||||||||||||||||
LudvanB Inactive Member |
quote:
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024