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Author | Topic: Evidence for a recent flood | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The first recorded proof the universe and the earth are billions of years old is in Genesis - even before the notion of 'billions' was yet known by humanity. How many years account for seperation of light and darkness; day and night; water and land? These actions are listed in Genesis before the advent of life occured and before the Hebrew calendar was given. A lie by omission is - surprise, surprise - a lie. Has this something to do with the date of the flood?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3697 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
The flood has not been proven with hard copy such as relics, however, that it is ancient is attested by writings from other ancient nations in the same vicinity. We have no proof of Adam either, however it remains the oldest recorded name as 5772 years old - this gives it a measure of credibility which stands until disproven by an earlier recorded name. The same applies to the first recorded king being Nimrod - asking to disprove this is not a call to prove a negative - it is a call to disprove a positive.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
The flood has not been proven with hard copy such as relics, however, that it is ancient is attested by writings from other ancient nations in the same vicinity. We have no proof of Adam either, however it remains the oldest recorded name as 5772 years old... So you would place the flood at perhaps a thousand years or so after 5772 years ago? Now we're getting somewhere. Next, is the flood local, regional, or global?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3697 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: That answer I am not sure about, but I can say it is ancient. The bible period ended 2,200 years ago [Christianity and Islam being replacement theologies which posit previous, ancient writings], so all history before this date is ancient history. The flood, according to the correct reading of the texts and its factual evidences of such, as well as the evidenced negation of global flood, describes a regional flood only.
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Butterflytyrant Member (Idle past 4450 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined:
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Genesis is more than one sentence.
Just because you can take one part of sentence and make it sound scientific does not mean the rest of the document is scientific. Genesis is 50 chapters of text. Do you really think quoting one word from one sentence makes the entire book scientific? The information you have provided is also quote mined. The full quote is - Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. This loses any scientific credibility as soon as a supernatural being is introduced. I dealt with your claim here Message 17. In that thread I supplied several earlier texts from other religions that mention the beginning. Using your logic, they are also science. And so are the following - "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away" Star Wars is science because there are some galaxies far away. "Flintstones. Meet the Flintstones.They're the modern stone age family. From the town of Bedrock, They're a page right out of history." The Flintstones is science because it correctly buts these people into the stone age. "Space... is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is..." The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy is science because this statement is scientifically accurate. "garedle san bipple gron kijefrrepp quark yoble yoble row slek trigno sheppled" That sentence is pure gibberish. But it is also science because it has the word ''quark" in it. You should try thinking before you post things.I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot "Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson 2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3697 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: You mean as with Einstein - its not what he says but what he maybe is?
quote: That quote is scientific in galaxies being far awayl star wars is not. The verse in Genesis is wholly scientific; it says the galaxies and the earth had a beginning. To boot it is the first recording which not only makes that statement, but also the first time such a thought was made. You cannot show a similar item even 1500 years after that date.
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Butterflytyrant Member (Idle past 4450 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined:
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How about you try to answer the questions.
This is the statement from my message - If we have this estimated date, we can look for evidence of this flood whether it was global or regional. Your reply - Dated historical archives mention the flood, evidencing it occured. I see how you have supplied some words there. I also see that they do not actually answer the question. Notice the distict lack of a date in your answer. You seem to believe that you work from the one correct version of the Old Testament (although you wont mention which one in order to avoid any scrutiny) and you seem to believe that you alone are the only one who can correctly interpret the scripture. You claim that the Old Testament contains a complete diarised calendar of events. Given this information, you (in your mind at least) are likley the only person who has ever lived who can actually supply the correct date. So supply the date of Noahs flood. When did the rain start and how long was the region inundated?
Question from my post - If we have a region, we can examine this region to see if a regional flood would be plausible for that area. your reply - The region is around Mount Ararat, a land mark mentioned for the first time, with aerial view location accuracy. Can you provide the scripture to support this? Also, 'around Mount Ararat' is a bit unspecific. Giving the highest point in the area as the central location of a flood is a bit illogical. You do know that water runs downhill dont you? Was the flood 100 km around this area? 1000 km maybe? How big was this regional flood? Did it reach as far north east as Sevan Lake or as far South East as Lake Van? With this information we can examine the claim. Try as hard as you can to actually answer those two questions. Before you post your reply, read what you have written and see if it actually answers the questions. The first answer will contain some dates. They will be numbers. The second answer will contain some scripture advising of the location of the flood. It will also contain a description of the region that was flooded. Latitude and longitude coordinates would be great. Landmarks that were the borders of the flooded region will suffice.I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot "Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson 2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3697 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Mount Ararat is introduced for the first time, in its correct geographical location; the surrounding names of ancient countries also listed confirms the applicable region. But I won't indulge you in nonsense questions just because you find it unacceptable that Genesis, what you and many others like to refer to as myth and fable, is in fact correct as no other writings is. You should be clapping hands at Genesis instead of ignoringits bounty of stats and frog leaping to nonesense.
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Butterflytyrant Member (Idle past 4450 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined:
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You mean as with Einstein - its not what he says but what he maybe is? Does that make sense on your planet?
That quote is scientific in galaxies being far awayl star wars is not. The verse in Genesis is wholly scientific; it says the galaxies and the earth had a beginning. Your quote may be scientific. Genesis is not.
To boot it is the first recording which not only makes that statement, but also the first time such a thought was made. You cannot show a similar item even 1500 years after that date.
Now you claim to know when the first thought about something occured??? Your claims reach further into fantasy every time you post. Not only have I shown that your claim is not true, I have shown it with 9 examples from various regions and periods in the Great Debate here - Message 17. Your claims are off topic bullshit. If you want to defend your claim, try doing it in the thread specifically created for your to do so. This thread is 'Evidence for a recent flood'. Unless you find a topic titled 'thread for IamJoseph to make random bullshit claims and generally rave about any lunacy he wants' please make an attempt to further the topic.I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot "Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson 2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3697 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Correct historical icons and contemporary nations, and cross reportings from independent nations, is scientific evidence. No one has doubted the flood; only its size is questioned.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Present the evidence for the flood, a flood, several floods, but present some evidence. So far all you have presented is unsupported irrelevant unrelated nonsense.
If it was a local flood, present the bounds of the flood, the actual evidence for that flood/Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
No one has doubted the flood; only its size is questioned.
The flood as described in the bible never happened. Only by twisting things around to make it a little trickle of a flood can you argue there was such a flood, and by then it doesn't match the biblical myth. But at least we agree that the mythical flood was recent, eh?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3697 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
All of archeology, a faculty of science, makes its findings in accordance with the applicable period. Usually, one single cross reference or indicator is accepted as proof. A geneology with authentic names, a listing of ancient nations which are no more but known to be authentic, a reference from another independent nation, a diarised calendar - this is big time proof. Otherwise you can demand proof that stars are bigger than golf balls too - and I could not satisfy you.
We know that there is zero proof of the Gospels for example - but it is accepted by more than 50% of humanity. Compare it with Genesis and what have you got? With the Noah story, we are talking about a period when writings, perhaps also language, never existed accept for a most meagre form. The debate about a regional or global flood cannot be misconstrued as a debate of a flood's veracity here. The proof of Abraham is monotheism and a geneaology listing, along with critical icons of its period. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3697 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: This refers only to the flood size. You agree it is a factual flood by default by questioning its dating as well.
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Butterflytyrant Member (Idle past 4450 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined: |
Mount Ararat is introduced for the first time, in its correct geographical location; the surrounding names of ancient countries also listed confirms the applicable region. repeating the same claim without supporting evidence does not make it any more true. It just makes you look like a parrot. here is a chunk from wiki discussing Mount Ararat -
quote:Mount Ararat - Wikipedia Another wiki chunk -
quote:Mount Ararat - Wikipedia Could it be that you are the only person on Earth who has been able to establish the correct geographical location of Mt Ararat? Also, the mountain was renamed Ararat AFTER judaism became popular in the region. It was known as Urartu before that. It may have been the first recording of that name. But this is because the writers gave it that name. I rename Mount Ararat - Mount Coca Cola. This webpage now introduces Mount Coca Cola for the first time, in its correct Geographical location. What does this prove, fuck all and nothing.
Mount Ararat is located in Eastern Turkey on the borders of Iran, Armenia (formerly U.S.S.R.), and Nakchivan. This volcanic mountain rises 5,165 meters or 16,945 feet high, far above the plains that are at 2,000-3,000 feet high, and is the highest location in the ancient territory of Urartu, a region which covered tens of thousands of square miles with hundreds of mountains. Ararat is the newer Armenian name of Urartu from the Hebrew Torah written by Moses (c. 1400 BC), which only included the consonants "rrt". However, the translators of the Bible replaced the "rrt" with the later name, "Ararat" or "Armenia." The Assyrian kings wrote about battles against the Urartian tribes from the thirteenth century BC (c. 1286 BC) until the sixth century BC when Urartu was destroyed by the Medes. The name Urartu then vanished from history (until archaeologists re-discovered it in the 1800s) and was replaced by Ararat and Armenia in the vicinity as well as in English Bible translations, maps, etc. As history went on in the first and second millenia AD, the mountain became known as Ararat and the region as Armenia.
Noah's Ark Search - Mount Ararat
the surrounding names of ancient countries also listed confirms the applicable region. FIne. If you believe that you know the region of the flood, please supply its location. A description that can be followed by looking at a modern day map will be fine. Lat and long coordinates of the borders of the flooded region would be great. You appear to be the only person on Earth who has this information so please be specific.
But I won't indulge you in nonsense questions just because you find it unacceptable that Genesis, what you and many others like to refer to as myth and fable, is in fact correct as no other writings is. So you wont be attempting to support your claims? You just want to be able to rant and rave without having to substantiate any of your claims? Do you believe that your lunacy has some special reason to be beyond contestation? When you post on a science thread, you should expect to get questioned. And we expect answers.
You should be clapping hands at Genesis instead of ignoringits bounty of stats and frog leaping to nonesense. I cant blindly 'clap my hands' because I am not a fundamentalist Jew, Christian or Muslim and I am not an idiot. Get back to the topic of start your own thread.I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot "Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson 2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award
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