Have You Ever Read Ephesians?

The word OIKONOMIA or ECONOMY (sometimes rendered DISPENSATION) literally means -law of the house or house law.The economy refers to how God manages His household. The arrangement and dispensation of the house's owner to the people within the house is the OIKONOMIA or the economy of God.I believe that you will also find the rendering of this Greek word as STEWARDSHIP.Stewardship, Dispensation, Economy - God has RICHES to dispense to those in His household. There is the law of the dispensing of His untold riches to His family members.Paul writes that from our side as believing human beings God's economy is in the realm of FAITH.This can be seen in two important places - in Ephesians and in First Timothy " Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy [OIKONOMIA] which is in faith ..." ( 1 Timothy 1:4,5) The whole realm of God dispensing His life into man is in the sphere and realm of FAITH. The FAITHFUL God has chosen in this age at least, the way of faith as the means by which He dispenses untold wealth into His redeemed children.Then we see very much the same thing in our topic book Ephesians - "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, .." (Eph. 3:17) God is FAITHFUL. Through our faith in the faithful God -We are redeemed. We are justified forever. We are regenerated and born of God. We are sanctified. We are resurrected and glorified.
We are built up together into God's habitation in spirit through the same faith. And through faith Christ makes His home deeper and deeper, more and more, more extensively and wideningly in us.Back to the matter of WALKING by the Spirit:Paul says God's economy is in the realm of faith - FAITH in the FAITHFUL God. Paul says in a sister book Colossians - " As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him ..." (Col. 2:6) We receive Him into our being by faith - "Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus I receive you as my Lord, as my savior. Thankyou Lord." We receive Him by faith because God is faithful. As we receive Him we should continue in the same manner to WALK in Him - "Lord Jesus YOU are my patience. Lord Jesus YOU are my wisdom. Lord Jesus YOU YOURSELF are my endurance, my love, my devotion, my very consecration. Lord Jesus YOU are my everything." As we RECEIVE Christ the Lord we should then continue in the same manner to step by step WALK in Him.This is the exact same thing as is uttered slightly differently in Galatians - " If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:25) Man's faith in Christ is the most mighty thing. It deserve no pity. God's household law and His dispensation is carried out in the realm of faith. It is not faith in a vacuum.It is faith in the God who is FAITHFUL.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What I was writing there was in no way intended to negate anything you wrote. At least not intentionally.I have offered some re-examination of something you contributed elsewhere. I was not trying to do so in that paragraph.I think your posts are very good on Ephesians. I think where I am is to be very careful who is talking to who and try to detect the proper flow of the conversation.Thanks.

I used the wrong analogy and without adaquate explanation.
But if I have to use a more accurate one, I'll try to explain a little further. Me too. As I said above, I meant another parable very close to that one.
For now I'll drop the relevance of the parables to this matter under examination - "walking by the Spirit."It may be necessary for me to revisit the connection. If I do, I will be more careful to explain what I mean. It is not irrelevant. It may be unnecessary at the moment. Actually, to be born is hardly like "turning over a new leaf." And to become a Christian is a matter of a supernatural birth.Do you believe that being a Christian is a supernatural matter?
I definitely do in my (as you say) practical experience.Now to be re-born or born again is a new beginning. In that sense I guess "turning over a new leaf" might be some people's idea. However any new self improvement, self cultivation, or resolution to do better in life apart from receiving Christ as Lord is not New Testament re-birth.If the objection is raised that there is no such "new-birth" or being born again in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, I would point to chapter 2. You have there the spiritually DEAD being MADE ALIVE in Christ, by God's operation. That is Paul's way in Ephesians of speaking of the born again experience taught in John's Gospel - "And you, though DEAD in your offenses and sins, in which you once walked ... God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD in offenses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) ..." (See 2:1-5 my emphasis) I include this point because I kind of anticipate an objection from someone that Ephesians says nothing about being re-born.Need I say more about this ?
You spoke I think of reason and logic I think?
Okay, here's the clear reasoning.1.) Paul says the believers were previously DEAD. Yet he cannot mean they were physically dead because he describes the behavior of such DEAD ones in their mind and body.2.) Paul further says that the fallen sinners are "alienated from the life of God" (4:18) . So the DEAD in offenses and sins walking around must be the deadness of being "alienated from the life of God".3.) To be MADE ALIVE is therefore not a physical resurrection yet. Paul is speaking of terminating the condition of being "alienated from the life of God" by placing Jesus Christ in the believers and the believers in Jesus Christ.This is something supernatural. And the supernaturalness of it is strongly implied by these words - " ... ( by grace you have been saved) ... For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works that no one should boast." (See 2:5-9) The new birth (Ephesians's style) - not of your natural energy, nor of mine. It is the gift of God. We can receive the GIFT. We can also refuse the GIFT.Of course it should be understood that the new birth (Ephesian's style) is miraculous because it is by the idenditcal same supernatural power which raised Jesus from the dead - "And what is the surpassing greatness of His [supernatural] power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operatee in Christ in raising Him from the dead ..." (1:19,20a) Supernatural operation of God's power raised Christ from the dead.
The same operation made us alive together with Christ.If someone want to say Christ rising from the dead was a sort of Christ "turning over a new leaf" then perhaps I'll agree that in that supernatural sense the new birth and the walking by the Spirit is the same sort of "turning over a new leaf."I'll stop here and read you other comments below. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The Holy Spirit contains the humanity of the man Jesus.So as He lived by the Father the Christian denies himself and lives by the Spirit of Christ. Self control is one of the attributes of this fine and perfect man.It is a supernatural matter that God can compound the characteristics of the resurrected Jesus into the open and submissive personality of the believers in Christ.Actually, they have been crucified with Christ. This is exceedingly practical. But I won't say much about this just yet. He has terminated and buried the old man.Paul learned that haning on to his ego was futile because he had already been crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, terminated, put away and raised a new man in Christ.The old self centered Adamic fallen man has been condemned in Christ's death. He did not reform it. He terminated it. This is something in the supernatural realm. But it is exceedinly practical to the normal Christian walk. As a result the rejector of the new birth via the Holy Spirit is under the wrath of God. He may only look forward to perishing. " .. you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; ... and were by nature the children of wrath ..." (See 2:1-3) In rejecting the prompting of the Holy Spirit, first of all to believe into Jesus, the sinner is not saved from God's judgment for eternity. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." (2:8) The Unitarian who refuses to believe into the Son of God rejects the gift of salvation.The Unitarian who becomes wise one day, and decides that regardless of religious affiliation she or he want to believe that Christ is the Lord - the resurrected Son of God, will be saved. This person has received Christ and therefore received the gift of God.It is not necessary initially to know a lot of doctrines. It is easy to be saved from eternal perdition. One believes into Christ and one is saved in eternal redemption. He may not understand too much. He understands that Jesus is his Lord and has been raised from the dead, and he receives this Jesus.Of course the new WALK should follow the new birth.
But any deciding not to believe in Christ is definitely deciding not to be led by the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ in the first place. That person is already abiding under the wrath of God. I don't know exactly what you mean by "this debate."Right behavior can be rebellion against God. Did you ever read the story of Saul being told to kill all the Amalekites. Yet he spared some of the cattle in order to offer sacrifices to God ? He spared king Agag and he sparred some of the cattle in disobedience to God's command.What did the prophet Samuel tell King Saul? Was he happy? Did he say God was pleased with this "good" behavior from Saul?

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" ... God ordered Saul to attack the Amalekites and destroy them utterly (1 Sam. 15). Yet after his wictory Saul spared Agag, king o fthe Amalekites, along with the best of the sheep and oxen and the fatted beasts and lambs and all that was good. Saul would not devote them to destruction; he argued that these were spared to sacrifice to God. But Samuel said to him: "Behold, obedience is better than sacrifice, Attention than the fat of rams" (verse 15:22 Darby). The sacrifices mentioned here wore sweet-savor offerings - having nothing to do with sin, for sin-offering was never called an offering of sweet-savor. They were offered for God's acceptance and satisfaction. Why did Samuel say that "obedience is better than sacrifice"? Because even in sacrifice there can be the element of self-will. Obedience alone is absolutely honoring to God, for it alone takes God's will as its center."

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[Spiritual Authority, Watchman Nee, CLC, pg. 13]

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God commands us to believe into the Son of God. Obedience to this is better than any kind of religious or non-religious good deeds. Samuel told Saul that rebellion was like the sin of witchcraft. God would not impressed with Saul's good deed in rebellion to His command.Our good can be revolt.
Our good can be rejection of God's authority.So Paul said "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" Now one may say "But I don't CARE about the gift of God. I only care to do good."We are free to take that attitude. But we will not be doing the will of God."But good is good is good." We may protest. From Genesis chapter 4 we should learn that Cain's good offering of the vegetative fruits of the ground were rejected by God. He wanted the blood offering because in shadow God only wants Christ His Son.So you may say that it is quite optional to be led by the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ and optionally be led to walk in Christ. But you will be outside of the will of God. He commands that we believe in the Son.Do I depart from the topic of Ephesians now? Hardly so! God's will is to subject all things to Christ the Head over all things. " And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be the Head over all things ... " (1:22) To not believe in the Son because one does not want to be enfluenced by the Holy Spirit, is to reject the Headship of the Son. Pluralism can be a cloke to reject the Headship of the One whom God has given all authority - "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matt. 28:18-20a) Some think to use pluralism and "tolerance" as a cloke to reject the one into whose keeping "all authority" has been given by God, in the wake of making this One Head over all things. I didn't say that Christians are forced to choose to surrender.Each person may have their own way of "changing their life style."
Though each has this freedom, he does not have the freedom to designate that as doing the will of God. God commands us to believe the Gospel of the died and risen Christ.From some sense of pluralism or tolerance one can say " I choose to change my life style quite apart from the Christ." This rejection of Christ will result in them abiding under the judgmental wrath of God.So say I? No, so says the book of Ephesians which we are supposed to be studying here - " ... you once walked according to the age of this world, accoding to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lists of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest.

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BUT GOD [my emphasis] ..., being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us; even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) By choosing another way to live, you are not saved.
By choosing to not be led by the Holy Spirit, you remain dead in offenses.If you could choose to live right from today on, (which you will fail at in some degree), your offenses of yesterday and before are still before God. So you need redemption from all past offenses. And you need provision to live unto God for the future by the Spirit of Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

To us who have experience these are things said, as you suggest, in reality and practicality.I am trying here to show both the reality and practicality of the teaching in Ephesians. True.Even though the believe in Christ is eternally redeemed, STILL God says judgment begins at the house of God. He can do many things to perfect His own sons short of causing them to perish forever.Individual responsibility to follow the Spirit of Christ after having been born of Christ is certainly not in dispute by me. How could I possibly be disputingt this when I reviewed Paul's exhortation to the saved -If we live by the Spirit LET US also walk by the Spirit.As therefore we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in Him.The very exhortations which I submitted posts ago strongly indicate personal responsibility of the saved believers to now go on to walk in Christ, grow in Christ, etc.But man's first obligation is to believe into Christ to be redeemed and to be made alive. But walking by the Spirit is definitely like a salmon fish swimming upstream.Reality? Practicality you are interested in? The world current is always in the opposition to God. The current of the world society is ever away from God. To walk in Christ is against the current and against the dowmward flow of the whole world.So exhortation is needed. So the more experienced must encourage the learning. The steady must help the floundering. And our brother Paul wrote some 13 or so letters to assist the floundering. They are his letters in the New Testament.Thank God that were some pioneers in this walk. Mildly put. It is worse than that.But I don't have to live that way. I can prayerfully read and consider the book of Ephesians. That's helpful. I am not sure what the comment about Paul's "disguise" means though without further reading of Goodspeed's explanation here. I think you are being a tad over idealistic. I told you that the current of the whole world is against the will of God. The Christians is a salmon swimming upstream in this age.Perhaps you do not understand the fierce spiritual warfare that is raging. God has subected all things under the Headship of Christ. Satan is not happy about this. The spirit that is now operating in the sons of disobedience, is not taking this without a fight.The warfare is over the planet. The fight is over the future as to whose kingdom will the world be - of Satan or of God. "Your kingdom COME. YOUR will be done. Yours be the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever." This is the prayer Christ taught His disciples to emulate.Training, reminder, teaching, exhortation, example, stumbling and getting up again even seven times, is needed. We do not DRIFT into the kingdom of God. We do not passively drift under the reign of God.There is ONE who is firmly under God's rule - the Son. We must be attached to Him. We must be joined to Him. And for this the stronger encourage the weaker. Indeed we all, in the Body of Christ, encourage one another regardless.And the believer seeks to persuade the unbeliever to be made alive. Not by preaching with words only but by life example.

"Religious verbiage" ... "religious jargon" ... however you'd like to speak of the terms and phrases Paul uses, which I think are under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.Econcomy, dispensation, head up, redemption, made alive, sonship .. I will continue to use good translations of the Greek words actually written by the Apostle Paul.I certainly have no reason to despise such phrases. And I let you use your kind of verbiage such as "life-style". Yes. The letter is to the saints in Ephesis. But the Gospel that it presents deals with these people BEFORE they became saints. So it is relevant to the discussion, I think.Ie. when they were in this condition it was prior to them being sanctified ones - saints (2:2,3) .Addressed to Christians? Certainly. Related also to non-Christians? Also, certainly. All one needs is faith in Christ to be made alive - born of God.
All one needs is faith in Christ to enjoy redemption.I believe that above I brought out that the way the man initially receives Christ is the way he is exhorted to continue on to WALK in Him. The passage was borrowed over from Colossians - "As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col 2:5) I learned many of these things by practical experience too. You did mention reality and practicality.There is the gift of divine life, for sure. But in the same sense there is, subjectively and experiencially, "the gift of righteousness" in a daily practical sense by exercising the same faith to take Christ item by item as one's own.I borrowed over the verbiage "the gift of righteousness" in this case from Paul's letter to the Romans. Allow me please - " ... much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17b) This is relevant to Ephesians. Throughout all of Paul's writings, including Ephesians, there are two aspects to righteousness:1.) There is the righteousness in standing, objective - because of the once and for all judicial redemption. This has not yet effected much the daily living of the believing sinner.2.) There is the subjective and lived out daily practical righteousness for the building up of the church.Now BOTH are really a matter of gift. And the experienced Christian should quickly learn this.1.) He realizes that it is God's GIFT that he has been thoroughly cleansed of all his sins and is justified before God in standing, objectively and forever. He will never perish. This was surely a gift received.2.) He realizes as he grows in Christ that the righteous manner in which he is learning to react and live is not of himself. It too is a gift from the abundance of grace available to him. He learns he can take Christ as his patience, Christ as his self control, Christ as his love, Christ as his consecration.To speak properly to his spouse, he needs and takes Christ.
To deal righteously on his job, he needs and takes Christ.
To love his neighbor, he takes Christ to be his love.
To love his enemy, he cannot do so on his own. He must take Christ.Growth then is taking Christ by faith item after item after item to be one's own because Christ is in him.Watchman Nee put it very well. The problem with the Christians is not that they do not have enough Christ. It is that they have too many things OTHER than Christ.In Him are all the riches needed to live a proper human life on the highest standard of morality. And in Him are the riches to live for God's eternal purpose for which He created all things.And that "verbiage" is right here: " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord JesusChrist, who has blessed us WITH EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING in the heavenliess in Christ." (my emphasis) Ie. "In Christ we believers have been furnished with EVERYTHING we need."But what about the outsider? What about the one not believing in Christ yet? Is there any relevance of Ephesians to such a one ?Well, the same RICHES available to the believer are presented in the very Gospel Paul preaches to the nations. Right here says so - " To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" (3:8 RcV) He does not say he announces this gospel to only the church. He says he announces this gospel to the Gentiles or to the nations of the world. But what is the contents of this gospel? " the UNSEARCHABLE RICHES OF CHRIST ... as the gospel" Much could be written about this. But to the SAINTS, the "insiders" the Christians - "every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies" is taught.Toward the "outside" of the Gentile nations, not yet become a believer in Christ - "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" is announced by Paul. And he considers it an unspeakable honor that he be chosen to do this.Are you taking the word "adopted" from the KJV translation of 1:5?
I appreciate the literal meaning of the word there - the place of a son. So SONSHIP has been used in my Recovery Version."Adopted" is okay. But it is more a legal matter. But SON in SONSHIP underscores not just a legal turning over to God's family but a being "organically" born into it. The relationship is not only legal but a matter of having the Father's life.God can dispense Himself in His communicable aspects into human beings making them His SONS with His own divine life. This is not insignificant. That is right. The Jews were chosen for the Old Covenant made at Sinai related to their keeping the law of Moses.But before the law the Promise of God was their's not related to their law keeping.Paul was a strict Pharisee before he became a disciple of Jesus. And Paul surely knew that the Old Covenant was related to Israel keeping the law - "Indeed the days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, NOT LIKE the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt ..." (Jeremiah 31:31,32a) This proves that the giving of the law of Moses at the Exodus at Mt. Sinai was indeed God making a covenant with His nation. That nation though already had a PROMISE concerning certain blessings which was only related to God's faithfulness to His friend Abraham. This you bring out, I think.But the same prophecy speaks of a "new covenant" which will be the new testament in Christ. God will make a new covenant. not like the Mt. Sinai covenant.He will "organically" write His laws into their inner being. Given further examination of the Bible this mean imparting the Spirit of Christ as the Third of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit into the believers. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares Jehovah: I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts; and I will be God to them , and they will be My people.

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And they will no longer teach, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for all of them will know Me, frm the little one among them even to the great one among them, declares Jehovah, for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jer. 31:33,34) Concerning what you wrote before. This prophecy does not say no new covenant man will tell another new covenant man "walk by the Lord" or "obey the Lord". It only says there is no need for one to exhort the other to know the Lord.All are regenerated and born of the Holy Spirit. And ALL know the Lord God.The reason why this knowledge can now take place is because a great and terrible barrier has been REMOVED. And that WALL of separation is their reals sins which have incurred real guilt and separates them from God. " ... for I will forgive their iniquity; and their sin I will remember no more." You see man's sins make the unbridgeable barrier between themselves and the holy God - " .. Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

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But your iniquites have become a SEPARATION between you and your God, and your sins have have hidden his facefrom you so that He does no hear." (Isaiah 59:1,2) My SINS made a barrier between me and God.
My INIQUITES made a separation so that I cannot get a prayer through to Him.I cannot have a relationship of communion with God because my sins have made a separation. He is Holy. He is Righteous and cannot abide with sin.So one of the things that has happened in the new covenant is that the sins of the one separated have been judged in Jesus Christ on His cross. Now coming to Christ the believers sins are gone. They have been judged. God remembers them no more because they have been dealt with -"Lord Jesus. Do you remember what I did? God do you remember what kind of dirty person I was and what I did?"God would answer " I don't know what you are talking about. Your sins were judged in Christ. Your sins and your iniquites I will by no means remember any more. And I place my Son into your heart supernaturally."This has to be considered as the backround to Ephesians.Before I lose this writing on a technicality, I stop here. Your other comments may receive reply below.

Continued: This is true, I think. However, when the new covenant comes along it is the Messiah's teaching that NO ONE is behaving such that they can be eternally justified before God.Yes, Aaron "behaved" beyond and over say Korah or Dathan and Ibiram. In the old covenant, sure, there are those obedient more so than others. I cannot dispute that and will not.But ... when Christ comes He teaches that NO one can be justified before God eternally outside of believing in the Son of God. And in His death and resurrection HIS "BEHAVING" so to speak, is accomplished for all the world for all time.Only the Son of God really ... really (as you wish to say) BEHAVED. Only the Son of God was absolute to the will of God. And in His death is a fulfillment of the all the types and shadows of the sacrifices under the law of Moses. " ... this [cup of wine] is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28) He is alluding to His approaching redemptive death on His cross. The covenant is the new covenant predicted by the prophet Jeremiah which I spoke to above.Again here in Luke: " This is My body which is being given for you; ... This cup is the NEW COVENANT established in My blood, which is being poured out for you." (See Luke 22:19-20) The believers among the Gentiles, who have obeyed the call of the Gospel, have been MADE ALIVE in Christ. They have been redeemed by His death. They have been re-born with the life of God through His resurrection.The Gentiles not yet believing need to hear the Gospel and need to believe into Christ. The Jews also need the same. If you wish to jump over to Romans then you have to notice that NO FLESH, but NOT FLESH ... shall be justified before God by works. You must read UP TO chapter 4 through chapters 1,2 and 3.ALL - religious and non-religious, Jew and Gentiles, are under God's condemnation in terms of eternity.

"Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who commits evil, both of Jew first and of Greek." (Rom. 1:10)

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"What then? Are we [Jews] better? Not at all! For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are ALL under sin, Even as it is written, There is none righteous, not even one ... etc. (Romans. 3:9,10)

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" ... out of works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; " (v.20)

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"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (v.23)

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Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood ... " (v.25)

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" ... indeed God is one, who will justify the circumsision out of faith and the uncircumcision through faith." (v.30) Paul says in Romans, concerning the Gospel which in Ephesians he says is of the unsearchable riches of Christ, that he is deptor to preach it to both Jews and Gentiles - "I am debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to foolish" (1:14) We will visit Romans 6-7 and probably 8 in another post.
This is a good lead in. And I absolutely hope to related to Ephesians which we are mainly discussing. By definition, the Christian has been redeemed and begotten of the Father.Adopted - yes. But a made alive within, and not simply transfered legally.It may be said that no word in Ephesians is explicitly to an unbeliever. I would not dispute that. That could be true.However, contrast is made between believer and unbeliever.
And contrast is made between the believers new life and their former life.The Gospel to the unbelievers is mentioned.
When these aspects are discussed the real truth seeker, I feel, should not feel uncomfortable. That is not if he is really hungry to know what Ephesians is about. [qs] Backsliding is a posibility. Yes.Paul even lost some fellow co-workers to backsliding.Paul's exhortation to keep one's conscience clear cautions of those who neglected this and became shipwrecked in the faith - " Holding faith and a good conscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith; Of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to satan that the may be disciplined not to blaspheme." (1 Tim. 1:19,20) Now I do not know for certain that people like Bart Erhman and Sam Harris were REALLY once Christian disciples. But it IS possible.And it is possible that these "Been There and Done That" X- evangelical Christians became shipwrecked in their faith mainly because failed to confess sins which they would no part from.For this reason it is crucial in shepherding new believers that they know that as the Holy Spirit gradually enlightens to them sins in their living, they should -1.) confess and bring those sins under the blood of Jesus.
2.) seek Christ's grace to enjoy His deliverance from those sins.Yes, indeed, there have always been and will continue to be SOME believers who make ship wreck of their faith.I spent some time myself in this condition. So I know it is possible to get into that state.But there is ALSO recovery from that statee back to one's first love through the precious blood of Christ.Now Paul had two co-workers - Hymenaeus and Alexander, who got so backslidden that they begin to blaspheme God.People like Bart Erhman and Sam Harris, making loads of money with their "Been There and Done That," X Christian books ALSO can be so backslidden so as to write blasphemous or near blasphemous things against Christ.The "choices" of some to chase some idol and turn their backs on Christ remains real. Anything that replaces God in a person's life is an idol - whether education, a reputation, prestiege, a best seller, a mega church of thousands of people, etc.John the Apostle dealt with such backsliders too. In his third epistle one such disciple was so desires to have a position among the brothers that he put people out of the local church and refused to receive John's letters. " I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not receive us. ... babbling against us with evil words; and not being satisfied with these, neither does he himself receive the brothers, and those intending to do so he forbids and casts out of the church." (3 John 9,10) This is very serious backsliding. This is clinging to a position and backsliding. I am so glad the New Testament is candid. Well then, you should be happy. However, I do not confirm that being made alive in Ephesians or walking by the Spirit in Galatians or Colossians can possibly be done apart from the miraculous intervention of God and Christ.Maybe you're not saying that. Maybe your way of writing here is just a little non-commital and muddy. Maybe you've learn to be politically savvy ... not quite saying anything too contraversial but being magnanimous.Me, I'm very easy to peg. My God is the man Jesus.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This is wrong. This is one of the things I disagreed with.Hardly anything in the behavior exhorted and taught in the whole book is possible apart from being made alive in Christ.If it were the case, Christ and His work would be unneccesary.Nothing in Ephesians even suggests that God can fulfill His eternal purpose outside of Christ as the sphere of His operation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

In Philippians the same apostle writes "For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for [His] good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13) Possible Pushback - "But that is not in Ephesians !" I think the concept is there too in Ephesians. The repentant sinners are made alive in Christ precisely for the purpose that God may begin to operate in them. In doing so He operates BOTH the willing and the working for His good pleasure.His good pleasure is central to the theme of the book of Ephesians. I think we already saw that. Possible Pushback "But we don't care about God's good pleasure. We only care about good works." But Ephesians is on God's good pleasure. And good works outside of Christ leaves the sinner without salvation. Possible Pushback - "But we don't care about salvation." I think to really study Ephesians you have to pay attention to the matter of God's salvation. And that would be an understatement.Now why do the believers have to hold fast to the living Christ as the Head ? It is because OUT FROM the Head His Body is enlivened and grows - " ... the Head, Christ, out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (4:15c.16) Possible Pushback - "But we don't care about the buildng up of the Body" Yes, but Paul does. Yes but Ephesians does. Yes but does. And yes the normal Christian disciple should care.The building up of the corporate dwelling place of God is the building of His living temple on the earth. It is His POEMA - His MASTERPIECE.The builded church is like God's Ninth (ie. Beethoven's Ninth symphony) - God's stroke of sheer divine genius.We (the saved) are His POEMA - His masterpiece. His creation displaying His wisdom and skill. Pushback again - "But we don't care about the church. Christianity is a mess." Christianity may be a mess. But God still says the church which Christ builds cannot be defeated by the gates of hell.Sure, ME TOO... in myself I only care about individual spirituality, individual good works. Christ in me cares for His Body, His living temple, His habitation of God in spirit. He is the Head of that living entity. All the things pertaining to that living Body flow out from Him.So to make us ALIVE with His resurrection presence is crucial. Paul has no commission from God to develop anything outside of the realm of Christ.The Body is also called a temple. Christ is the cornerstone of the temple. That is important. " Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone" (2:20) Studying Ephesians and making light of being made alive in Christ is really saying the cornerstone of God's building is not important.The living building has a living cornerstone. And in Him is all the building - "In whom all the building ..." (2:21) I am going to study Ephesians here with an eye on the priorities of the letter. Others can put in place their own priorities. I think we need to enter into the "spirit" of Paul in writing this prose. Here by "spirit" I mean the view or atmosphere.Only here do I use "spirit" now in this sense. Possible Pushback - "But that is so limiting, so restricting to only view this letter about Christ and His church." No it isn't. Paul discribes Christ in Ephesians like the very infinite dimensions of the universe. His love is EXHAUSTLESS and EXTESIVE and EXPANSIVE and ALL INCLUSIVE.Aren't you convinced ? I am convinced. Right here - "... that you ... may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ, that you [corporate you] may be filled unto all the fullness of God." (3:18,19) This is like Paul discribing the unsearchably rich Jesus Christ in terms of the infinite dimensions of the universe.How broad is "the breadth" ?
How long is "the length"?
How high is "the height"?
And How deep is "the depth"?The implication is that we cannot exhaust the expansiveness of this Person Jesus Christ. He is like the very size of the universe. The knowledge surpassing love of Christ will require eternity to learn.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I agree with this. But I would choose to express being alive in Christ as having the living available Christ living within.You see, the Christian may pray for his or her children, or a friend. According to that petition God may offer some protection to that prayed for person even though that person is not made alive in Christ.A Christian may petition God for some unbeliever, saying "Lord Jesus do stir in them and compel them to confess their sins and pick up a Holy Bible." Now the Holy Spirit may enfluence such a prayed for person somehow, yet that person is not yet made alive in Christ.So under some protection of God and under some enfluence of God may not be made alive in God. But for certain the person made alive in the new birth is under that enfluence.Some Christian mother or grandmother or anyone may be praying hard for God to protect and enfluence in life some wayward loved one, OR enemy for that matter.God hears those petitions and will offer some protection and channeling of that unbeliever into salvation. If not, it is hard for any of us to be saved.My point - an unregenerated person may benefit from some enfluence of God and Christ or even some prompting of the Holy Spirit. Yet they are not yet made alive through the new birth. True indeed. Paul's letter is to address such abnormal Christian experience. His Ephesian letter is to bring them into normality in Christ.But I would also add that a made alive person in Christ may be use to being naturally good. And he mistakes his natural good behavior for walking by the Spirit. This ethically good person who depends on the goodness in himself rather than on Christ, must learn to discern between his own natural good living and walking by the Spirit.I am crucified with Christ means that the good "I" has been crucified as well as the bad "I" has been crucified.Paul was quite a good, ethical, zealous for the law of Moses religious man as he was persecuting the Christians. He probably had few if any vices. When he met Jesus Christ he learned more and more that God rejected his goodness from himself.Paul pioneered the way to show us that God rejected all of what we can do in our flesh. That is not only our bad flesh but also our good flesh. "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave HImself up for me.

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I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ has died for nothing." (Gal. 2:20,21) It is Christ who lives in Paul. It is not the good Paul. Much less it is the bad Paul. It is not the good Paul but Paul crucified. And Christ lives in Paul in a mingled and blended way of His availability.Paul had NO CONFIDENCE in the goodness which he could muster up in his flesh. And he taught the same to his co-workers - "For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh ..." (Phil. 3:3) We have in another discussion talked about some of the battles of Joshua in the land of Canaan. Some complain of genocide. Certain tribes God commanded to be dealt with most severely like the Amalekites, like the Medianites, like Jericho.There is a New Testament application to this slaughter. Sometimes we do not realize the subtlety of the enemy within. God sees. But we do not see.I tell you that our eye would pity. God says "The whole thing must go to the cross. You must deny yourself. You must turn to Christ and not preserve the pitied for self."This is a big subject. My point is that not only our wicked badbnesss can oppose God. Even our goodness which is natural can stand against God. He knew that before we were even born. And supernaturally He has provided a way that we can be crucifed WITH Christ, buried with Christ, and raised to walk in newnesss of life with and in Christ. Being made alive in Christ is to train man to LIVE Christ. Or in other words the living Christ can live again on the earth THROUGH the one who has been made alive.There is nothing sentimental about this. This is the real and living Christ who is available in the form of "a life giving Spirit" living again on the earth in a blended way with the believer.Now this is a learning experience of the whole life. It is not mastered quickly. But Paul prayed that the believers would be strengthened into the inner man - " That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith (3:16,17) Ie. "You have touched your new inner man. You have touched Christ living deep within you. You need to be strengthened to abide in that realm. You need the Holy Spirit to draw you into that inner man so that you live there and walk daily in that sphere.As you log more and more time energized into your inner man the result will be that Christ will settle down in your soul. Christ will migrate from your inner man into your mind. Christ will permeate your imagination. Christ will permeat your emotion. Christ will move out to saturate your will. Christ will have authority over your soul because He will make His home there."Eventully Christ will burst out into your physical body. Thus we have -
1.) Regeneration
2.) Transformation
3.) TransfigurationThat is - regeneration of the human spirit.
Followed by a life long transformation in the human soul.
Followed by a final transfiguration of the body.And we also have building up together into the corporte dwelling place of God in spirit as the living temple. We need to be in a proper local church like the church in Ephesus. You are right. God does not usurp the human will in this matter.The symbol of the Holy Spirit in the Gospels is a DOVE. This is a shy animal who is easily brushed off.The Holy Spirit as a gentle dove will flutter within. The slightest resistance from the Christian may cause Him to withdraw His enfluence temporarily. Christ is LORD. But Christ is a GENTLEMAN.In this age Christ will not usurp your will. He will not FORCE or COERCE you to go along with Him and His Father.You are quite correct. And we should be careful of religious presentations which portray the Holy Spirit as coercing or forcing people against their will to do this or that. Some branches of Pentacostalism, in their enthusiasm, may give the impression that the Holy Spirit has FORCED a person to behave in a certain way.This is highly suspect. So we love them. But we also caution such. In this age of grace the Dove of the Holy Spirit will lead you and prompt you to go along with the divine nature. But He will not usurp your human will.I will not go into this now. And I am still a learner. But another side of this Christian walk is that excessive PASSIVITY on the part of the believer can ALSO be a pitfall.So on one hand God will not force you. But on the other side it is dangerous to be overly PASSIVE - "Well. if God wants me to do this then He is going to have to do it. I am just going to sit here and wait."Some unbelievers will not be saved by Christ because they passively would not turn to Christ in prayer or in belief or in repentance.C.S. Lewis was estute to say that when Satan send errors into the world concerning God, he usually sends them in opposite extremes. This way he will catch people in one problem or the opposite one. In this case the pitfall is expecting God to COERCE and FORCE your will and on the other hand excessive PASSIVITY that will not come forward to God - come forward to Christ. And such guidance expands, deepens, and widens.With the brand new Christian it is often like the mother training her child. One of the first words the child will learn is the word "No."A brand new believer in Christ will probably receive guidance from the Holy Spirit in terms of Him saying a lot of "No."Ie. "What you are about to say .. No, this time don't say that.""Where you are about to go ... No, this time do not go there.""No. Don't do that.""No. Don't think that.""No. Don't speak that."The new believer will be guided early by many "Nos" to train them gently to take another course from what they are used to doing. As we become strengthened into the inner man, this guidance will become more and more fine.The believe has to seek others who are experiencing the same thing. And he can be built up in the Body of Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Richh,How do you feel about the whole word "bless"?I find that this is an easy word to take for granted. I use to hear that we should "bless" our food at dinner. So when I read about God blessing or we blessing God it had that kind of ceremonial taste to it.Do you believe there is any operational result to one blessing another? I believe whatever God does must have impact. But I'd like you to explain the "blessings" of Ephesians chapter 1 a bit. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Throughout chatper one and on we see that Christ as a Person is a realm which man can ENTER. For so many things occur in Christ as a enterable realm:1.) Verse 1 - The sanctified ones, the ones made holy and called saints are in Christ. - ... to the sains who are in Ephesis and are faithful in Christ Jesus. ( I think only the Chester Beaty manscript mentions Ephesus )2.) Verse 2 - The believers receive blessing in the sphere of Christ.
" ... has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ." 3.) Verse 3 - Though this happened before the believers existed, they were chosen in the realm of Christ -
"Even as we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ..." 4.) Verse 6 - The believers are "graced" or receive God's grace in the realm of Christ - " ... He graced us in the Beloved [Christ]" 5.) Verse 7 - In the realm of Christ the believers have redemption and the forgiveness of sins - "In whom [Christ] we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses ..." 6.) Verse 10 - God's operation to head up all things in the universe is to occur in Christ - " Unto the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him." 7.) Verse 11 - In the realm of Christ human beings a designated as God's inheritance, God's treasured possession - "In whom also we were designated as an inheritance ..." 8.) Verse 12 - The believers who pioneer into the new age will have FIRST hoped in Christ - " ... we should be to the praise of His glory who have first hoped in Christ." 9.) Verse 13 - In the realm of Christ they first heard the word of truth - " In Whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing ..." 10.) Verse 13 - In Christ the believers were sealed by the Holy Spirit - " ... in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise ..." 11.) Verse 19 - God's mighty power toward the believers from Christ's resurrection operated in Christ too - " ... what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead ..." These verses in chapter one show that Christ is the sphere and realm in which God carries out so much of His eternal economy. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Richh,Upon more careful cnsideration, I think some of my examples were about "in Christ" but not that much about man ENTERING into Christ.IE. God purposed "In Him" is really about God purposing in Christ more than man entering in.Is that right with some of the examples I gave?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Richh,This is what I am getting at in the matter of blessing.Take the example of the creation story. God created man and THEN blessed him. Genesis 1:27,28 - And God created man in His own image ... And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful ... etc." If God had not blessed man in verse 28 what would be the difference?Is the command to be fruitful and fill the earth PART of the blessing.My suspicion is that for God to speak well or bless someone is not idle. It must have impact. It must be operational. There must be some power and authority in the well speaking of God which matters. Psalm 33:9 "For He [God] spoke, and it was; He commanded, and it stood." We see that God also calls things not being as being - "God ... calls the things not being as being." (Rom. 4:17) The speaking of God must have some tremendous impact of causation, perhaps. If He blesses, if He pronounces blessing, I wonder if something of cause and effect is set in motion.It is hard for me to get beyond my old religious notion of blessing. Ie we bless the food at the table in saying grace. Or something like that.For God to bless, I genuinely wonder, must set something in motion. His well speaking matters.By the same token we have man blessing God in Ephesians. But it is not any man. It is the man redeemed and recovered for His will. This saved man blesses - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us ..." This is a mutual matter. This is the saved human beings returning a blessing to the God who has blessed them. This is the redeemed mutually blessing the Blesser Who has previously spoken well of them.Does God require our blessing?
Does man's blessing of God set anything in motion or have any impact ?I muse on the deeper significance of this, if there is any. Share more of your insight if you have any.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

A statement on the will of God?
I will try to adhere at this time to Ephesians.In 1:6 is the mention of " ... the good pleasure of His will" . Since what has gone before is " ... according to the good pleasure of His will" I must include His will refers to the previous matters.1.) To have SONS with the life and position of SONS - "sonship" is the will of God. "Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." How can we not say that God's will is to have sons through THE Son Jesus Christ. That is to mass produce sons of God through the prototype and standard model of THE Son of God.2.) I think if we speak of "the good pleasure of His will" in v.5 then probably " the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure" mentioned in verse 9 should also be an indication God's will. What does it say about His will then? "Making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, unto the econmoy of the fullness of the t imes, to head up all things in Christ ... " Along with have with the sonship there is the will to "head up all things in Christ."This strongly implies that all things must be presently in some state of having collapsed or dropped down into a chaotic ruin in some regard. Witness Lee rightly refers to "the universal heap of collapse."I think many theologians refer to "the fall." For God to have a will to that Christ head up all things in heaven and on earth means that God wills to terminate the heap of chaotic ruination and structure it up into a well organized, well coordinated system under the leadership of Jesus Christ.So up to verse 10 we have God's will of having sons with the life and position of divine sons. This is a life matter relating man to God in a kind of living organic relationship.Then we also have God's will in somewhat of a more outward way. All things out there, in the world, in the universe to be headed up from their state of apparent collapse into a well structured system under Jesus Christ.The last two verses of chapter one nicely summarize these two matters. One being God within His people. The other being all things structured up properly under His sons. "And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be the Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness on the One who fills all in all." (vs. 22,23) He is IN the Body of Himself as the life of that Body and as the fullness that fills every part of that body.In His being Head of that corporate Body He is Head over all things TO the church. He is Head over all things in view of the church. He is transmitting that headship from Himself to His mystical Body.This has to agree with sons with the sonship reigning with Him over the creation. And it surely agrees with God planning these reigning sons "before the foundation of the world" (v.4). ie. before the creation of the universe.I should add that the words "Unto an economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ ..." indicate process. That is gradual process that requires TIME. It requires TIME to climax in something. That is for time to reach a consummation. That is for history to be moving gradually towards a goal.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.