Have You Ever Read Ephesians?

Richh, how would you distinguish the difference between all things being headed up "in Christ" from the believers being "in Christ"?Compare for example these two "in Christ" passages:1.) "But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have become near in the blood of Christ." (Eph. 2:13) 2.) "Unto the fullness of the economy of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and things on the earth, in Him." (Eph. 1:10) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Because I am a male it is sometimes ackward for me to speak to this. Maybe it would be more acceptable to some suspicious attitudes if I were a Christian woman replying to this matter.What I said was that I think it is usual that the marriage relationship commences with one party (the female) agreeing to go along with the will of the other party (the male) to be joined in lifelong partnership.Are there exceptions? Yes.
Does the female always have a choice? No.
Sometimes the male may not have a choice in an arrangment made by parents of both.So what? Does that give the right of the man to have tyranical authority over his wife? It should not indeed. And it certainly should not in the Christian marriage in which fighting for one's own authority is an ugly matter.In my opinion the protection of the male in regards to the female is something of a matter of overseership. While a woman is caring for a child as nature has her designed to do, in principle she needs protection.Am I wrong? Am I unreasonable to suggest this?There is a perculiar prophecy in the book of Jeremiah where God says that He will do a new thing on the earth - a woman will encompase a man. Here are a few English translations of that passage:(copied without permission from Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you wander, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the land--a woman will shelter a man." "Bible Site" )

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New International Version (1984)
How long will you wander, O unfaithful daughter? The LORD will create a new thing on earth--a woman will surround a man."

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English Standard Version (2001)
How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man.

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New American Standard Bible (1995)
"How long will you go here and there, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth-- A woman will encompass a man."

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Holman Christian Standard Bible (2009)
How long will you turn here and there, faithless daughter? For the LORD creates something new in the land-- a female will shelter a man.

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International Standard Version (2012)
How long will you go this way and that, rebellious daughter? Indeed, the LORD will create a new thing on the earth; a woman will protect a man.

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King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

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GOD'S WORD Translation (1995)
How long will you wander around, you unfaithful people? The LORD will create something new on earth: A woman will protect a man.

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King James 2000 Bible (2003)
How long will you go about, O you backsliding daughter? for the LORD has created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall protect a man.

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American King James Version
How long will you go about, O you backsliding daughter? for the LORD has created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

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My purpose is not to give an interpretation of this passage other than to point out that the phrase "a new thing" should signify something atypical.In some way, God through the prophet Jeremiah, is saying a atypical, unusual, other than normally expected situation He will bring about - a woman shall encompase or protect a man.Do I mean that the passages indicates NO women have every protected their man? Of course not. But I think one has to read into the prophecy that it would normally be expected that it would be the other way around - a man would encompass or protect his woman.Now let me submit that this sense of encircling or encompassing is related (yet not totally defined) as having an element of authority and submission.Why is it described as a new thing that God will do?
In my opinion had God said the new thing He would do is that a man would encompass a woman, then I would assume that the relationship of overseership is customarily reversed.In Ephesians 5 Paul is using the husband / wife marriage to say something also about his deeper point - Christ's sanctifying and nourishing the church with love. "Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.

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That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word,

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That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrikle or any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish.

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In the same way the husbands also ought to love their wives as their own bodies; he who loves his won wife loves himself. ... we (Christian believers) are members of His Body.

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etc. ... This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church." (See 5:25-32) The matter of Christ and the church is a part of God's eternal purpose. In creation some window into the heart of God is seen. The marriage of a man to his woman is hint of the eternal purpose in God's mind that there be a union of Christ and the church.For this purpose, Christ sanctifies the church, nourishes, cherishes, loves, and even lays down His own life for the church. In short He encompases and protects His loving interest - the church which is His counterpart.It should be noticed that this is before the sin of Adam that marriage is designated in this way by God - Genesis 2:23-24 - And the man said, This time this is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called Woman because out of man this one was taken.

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Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Genesis 2 here is before the temptation, before the serpent, before the sin, before the fall of man, before the curse.Paul touches on this original intention of God in his exposition of the relationship of Christ and His redeemed Body, the church - " For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ also the church, because we are members of His Body.

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For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.

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This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church." (Eph. 5:29-32) It should be noticed that the prophecy that the woman would be "rule[d] over" was like the thorns and thistles, a by product of the sin of Adam and his wife.I think I understand this as a unfortunate outcome arising because of the damaged sin has brought into the world.Compare God's words to Adam and God's word to his wife: "And to Adam He said, Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you saying, You shall not eat of it;

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Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil will you eat of it all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will bring forth for you ... by the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground ..." (See Gen. 3:17-19)
"To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your pain in your childbearing; in pain you will bring forth children. And your desire will be to your husband, and he will rule over you." (Gen. 3:16) God didn't say that in Genesis 2 before the fall that sweaty man should labor among the thorns and thistles in anxiety and die.God didn't say in Genesis 2 before the fall that the child bearing woman would be ruled over by the husband she loves.At present I take these two prophecies as God predicting what negative by-products will come about as a result of the couple joining the opposition party of the serpent against God.Man passages in the Bible show a co-equal status of men and women / husband and wife / mother and father. But many verses show an encompassing and protecting of one on behalf of the other. And some passages reveal the ugly abuse of a fallen "ruling" of one over the other.And as I indicated above, though I may not fully understand Jeremiah's prophecy, God also speaks of a new thing to take place in which the ironic reversal of some kind causes a woman to protect, encircle, encompass a man.If any female is bothered by these comments I assure you that the Bible is a kind of book that somewhere steps on everyone's toes. The particular passages in Genesis may not step on my toes as a man. But there are other passages the flavor of which may be just as much a thorn to me.Do you wish something was not written there?
I know how you feel.Fortunately Genesis 3 is not the conclusion of the divine revelation.
And it appears that Jesus Christ taght that in the resurrection the saved will not have anything to do with men and women being married at all. " But when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in the heavens. (Mark 12:25) "But Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

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For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matt. 22:29,30) A lot is left unsaid. This does not mean I am not aware of those undiscussed things.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

So the "latter Paul" of the book of Ephesians is more interested in making a hierarchy ?Ephesians is very much devoted to describing the church as a living organism rather than a heirarchical worldly organization. For this reason the church in Ephesians is living Body with joints as an "organic" entity of spiritual life. "Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (4:16) This Body builds itself up in love through the divine life of Christ flowing out through every single member - "through the operation in the measure of each one part" This is a long way from encouraging a passive laity under a formal clerical heirarchy. There are no "professional" spiritual mediators doing all the work of building up the church for everyone else as if they alone are qualified to do so.Years ago it was pointed out to me that verse 11 should be understood as the apostles and prophets perfecting the saints to do the work of the ministry.Darby's New Translation has Ephesians 4:11-12 -

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" ... and he [Christ] has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ ..." (4:11-14)

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Darby's note explains that "with a view" indicates what is in the intention in the mind of the person. The apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers (one serving one performing two functions) are perfecting the saints (all believers) with the intention that the saints carry on the work of ministry and build up the body of Christ.This is not heirarchy usurping the function of all the saints who are passively unqualified subjects. It is the body which builds itself up in love through the operation in the measure of EACH one part (v.16)The Recovery Version eliminates the supplied semicolon altogether in verse 11 and makes this clearer "And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, until we all arrive ... etc." The persons as gifts labor to perfect all the saints to do the work of ministry. Essentially they perfect others to do what they themselves do.Footnotes 12(3,4) in the RcV read -

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"The many gifted persons in the preceding verse have only one ministry, that is, to minister Christ for the building up of the Body of Christ, the church. This is the unique ministry in the New Testament economy (2 Cor. 4:1; 1 Tim. 1:12)

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According to the grammatical construction, the building up of the Body of Christ is the work of the ministry. Whatever the gifted persons in v. 11 do as the work of the ministry must be for the building up of the Body of Christ. However, this building up is not accomplished directly by the gifted ones but by the saints who have been perfected by the gifted ones."

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Paul in Ephesians is concerned with the living function of all the members of the church as an organic Body rather than a formal organized heirarchy smothering the majority of believers into laymen's passivity.Hierarchy stifles the universal priesthood of the believers and paralyzes the corporate Body. The building up of the Body BY the Body through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the Body'sa growth hence also its building up.In a sense we are making too much of the Apostle Paul. The apostle is reflecting only what is on the heart of Jesus Christ. And in Second Ephesians ( the epistle to Ephesus in Revelation 2) Christ speaks of how He hates the work of the conquerors of the common people to cause a hierarchy. These ones are called the Nicolaitans - conquerors of the laity or victors over the commoners. "To the messenger of the church in Ephesus write: These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, He who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands." (Rev. 2:1)"But this you have, that hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." (Rev. 2:6) Both the church in Ephesus and Jesus Christ as the speaking Spirit hate the works of the hierarchy creating Nicolaitans. It stilfles the normal function of every member of the Lord's mystical Body.Christ hates the heirarchy. Christ commends the church in Ephesus for also hating the heirarchy. What Christ loves He wants His believers to also love. What Christ hates He wants also His believers to hate.The Apostle Paul labors to discourage the passivity and non-function of members. Paul encourages that each one part supply spiritual nourishment that the Body of Christ practically expressed in Ephesus would build up itself in love.Latter we can look at the epistles to Timothy to see if Paul is attempting to build a heirarchy in his final days of ministry.You Jazzns will detect that for my part I am completely convinced that we have one man writing these varied epistles. This is going to be a be an assumed point for me.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I realize you were exchanging there with Richh. And I just only chose to comment on one thing I thought was of interest.Like you, I intend to take more time and re-read the last few submissions of everybody. I may notice something askew. I understood you to be speaking of Ephesians, Timothy as pseudo Paul or latter Paul.And thanks for giving attention to my posts.

I see in this interesting word two possibilities I think:1.) To head up all things AGAIN - this second time in Christ.Or as you suggest -2.) To head up all things in Christ AGAIN.What do you think about this distinction ?
I don't know if there is something in the Greek which stresses one over the other.This I would say, that the pre-incarnated Christ is certainly God. The Christ after the incarnation, death and resurrection is the Firstborn from the dead.Christ is Head over all things before His earthly sojourn as God.
Christ is Head over all things after resurrection as God-Man.Please comment on this.
Jazzns may comment if he has a comment.Phat, are you still there ?

Because in the Pastoral Epistles of First and Second Timothy and Titus Paul deals much with the qualifications of elders and deacons I can see Jaszzn's point that the writer seems more concerned with heirarchy.Though I feel very uncomfortable with the word hierarchy, it is true that the it appears that Paul is establishing offices.I will spend a little time on this.

Oh Jazzns, you don't have to "surrender" as if we were having an arm wrestling match.I will further digest your post which actually is related to Ephesians 5.Right now I only want to say that words like "subjugate" make me feel uncomfortable. I have been happily married in a solidly Christian relationship for 36 some years.From the beginning I realized that I can no more "subjugate" my wife to anything any more than I could go out into the street and randomly "subjugate" any woman.As far as protection, the Lord knows that my wife has always handled the detail of keeping track of bills. She has protected me from going off and making some "people skills" mistake hundreds of times.So this matter of her originally saying "Yes I will marry you" and the subsequence three decades of marriage have absolutely and totally been a matter of joining of TWO cooperative wills.So the harsh term "subjugate" is not my intention at all. There have been other times when the leading of the Holy Spirit was more clearly known by her than it was by me.I indicated and will elaborate more latter - the fighting for one's own authority is an ugly matter in practically every realm. That is to stand up and say "Don't you realize that I am God's deputy authority here? YOU must submit to ME." This is totally of the flesh, is ugly and more often causes one to lose respect than to gain any.And it could be that because of the need to empathize and sympathize with the wife and children the Christian husband actually ends up "obeying" them more than the other way around.Con.t some latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Jesus Christ spoke to His followers about being "a city on a hill" (Matt. 5:14) and "the salt of the earth " (Matt. 5:13). A city on the hill is a testimony where righteousness and justice can be seen by the surrounding world. And the salt of the earth speaks of a preservative preventing the whole world from becomming corrupt.This is what the genuine local EKKLESIA must be. Her presence is Ephesus, Colossia, Loadicea, New York, Washington DC, Moscow stands as a testimony of where people are under Christ's lordship in all things. ( Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied ) The existence of local churches as Paul labored to establish are a "salt" - a preservative preventing the entire society from decay into moral rotteness.This is not just my theology but the experience of thousands of us on the five continents (and millions plus in mainland China underground) . Our looking forward is towards the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom on the earth.In the meantime the these communities of genuine local churches are not engines of social reform for society at large, but the presence of a preservative of decay for it "salt" and testimonies as a "city on a hill" exemplifying that there is another way to live.The Paul of Ephesians and the Christ of Matthew of course, speak the same thing. Some of us take Paul's word literally - "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God" (Eph. 1:1) This is a servant of God not tossing around his imaginative opinions of things. Rather a trained, prepared, and revelatory "sent one", one with Jesus Christ laboring for the will of God. That Christ is Son of God, we take seriously. That Paul was one of His apostles, we also take seriously.This is not to mean Paul was a perfect man. Only Christ is a perfect man. But Paul was a "wise master builder" (1 Cor. 3:10) of local churches and of the church universal.Fighting with him, as the Corinthians and the Galatians did, is missing a large portion of the blessing of his service to Christians. Your complaints against Paul are really nothing new. The Corinthains argued with him with suspicious accusations questioning his motives, questioning his credentials, questioning his methods, etc.I find much of the complaints against Christ's apostle here to be just worn over rehash of some first century recipients of his letters.In the letters to Corinth we see a good deal of skeptical audiences wrestling with Paul. Yet we are encouraged that a good deal of them were won over from their suspicions. I think in the Ephesians letter he had a very receptive audience, at least for a time. And not all people have received a revelation that Christ is the Son of God. When Peter admitted that Jesus was the Son of God Jesus said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him by His Father.Some people see "contradiction" because they have no revelation from God. The word firstly contradicts themselves. You know Paul twiced prayed for his audience in Ephesus that they would receive from God revelation and experience. Here are Paul's two marvelous prayers that his readers would receive something from God Himself - "Therefore I also ... making mention of you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritants in the saints, etc. etc. " (See 1:15-23) This is only a portion of Paul's petition that his readers be enlightened by revelation from God to see what he saw of God's economy.Then there is Paul's second petition to the Father in Ephesians - "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father ... that He would grant you, according the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all saints ... etc. etc. etc. " (See 3:14-19) These are not just nice sounding words to many of us. Each phrase is pregnant with meaning and reality.We need revelation to see Christ as the Son of God. We need something "flesh and blood" alone cannot grant us. And to see the extensiveness of Paul's Christ - the length and breadth and height and depth, also we need revelation and strengthening in the innermost spiritual being. Ephesians is an exceedingly profound book. It is a pity that in the hands of some the amount of attention is given to arguing that he didn't write it and that it has some bad instructions for wives and slaves, is unfortunate.I see in this a dissonance that the big picture is so extensively missed in favor of comparably minor exhortations. I don't fail as much to grasp the immediate practical nature of these exhortations. You seem to want to make them major dogmas.All things taken together, I think you are making too big of a problem with a few practical and immediate words of instructions in chapters 5 and 6. You really are missing the larger picture.This is to me like sitting down at a turkey feast only to hunt for a few small bones to choke on.When you take all of Paul's words together there is no problem there for me. It is quite balanced and impartial and has God's will in view in the largest sense. We live this way. As Paul labored that the members of the Body would be knit together and the living stones would be built together. God is building up His dwelling place of God in spirit. Being fitted together and blent together in oneness is the work of the Spirit for the building of the church.As in Ephesus so in many localities on the earth today, the believers from different walks of life are growing in the divine life together and being built up in oneness as Paul labored to bring about.We expect Christ as "the Desire of the nations" (Haggai 2:7) to return physically to this earth. Ephesians gives as a way we can cooperate with Christ and His apostles for His purpose. 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My God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit. I definitely believe in the Triune God.I am not a Oneness Pentecostal. But as far as I have seen some verses they espouse I would also. I would not do so in a way to damage other passages. That is to use one verse to fight against another. I want to believe the whole Scripture.I think you are refering to the "Jesus Only" kind of Pentacostalism of say the "Apostolic" denomination. No I am not in that denomination.The Father and Son and Spirit are distinct but not separate. Each lives within the other - coinherance. And this is very mysterious but experiencal and enjoyable to the believers in Christ.The Three of the Trinity I believe are distinct but not separated. And human words will be limited in fully explaining the three-oneness of God. There is the limitation of human language.This might help you to see where I am coming from: "Modalism, Tritheism or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God" by Ron Kangus
Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God – Contending for the FaithEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

With many of the writers of the books of the Bible we can detect evidence of their own times.When Paul says that the saints should greet one another with a holy kiss, we can detect this is more customary in some areas of times of human culture than in other. Perhaps in the Middle East to greet one another with a kiss is very typical.Though in the West we may greet one another with a hand shake the concept of RESPECT or EFFECTION is universal. In the new covenant church the saints should show effection and respect for one another. Ages and cultures may change. We live Christ in each age and culture. We give thought to what is noble in the sight of all.Whether a holy kiss or a holy handshake or a holy bow, what REALLY is the difference ?Some people exploit minor cultural norms dicerned in the letters to mean major stumbling blocks to discipleship of Christ.Whether you have indepted servitude or employer / employee relations - if both are Christians churching together or even if one is a brother - certain principles should be manifest in their behavior. These should be genuine from the heart and not done as eye service.Insubordination, exploitation are addressed. The times and culture may vary. Certain things are not effected by these cultural changes.Before we get to chapter 5 or 6 about Paul's exhortations to wives, husbands, servants or masters there are probably a hundred marvelous espects that should be treasured in the Christian life.As I pointed out before, Paul exhorts the believers to be "filled in spirit" . Basically speaking, this is to be filled with the presence of the available Jesus Christ in the innermost human spirit - filled with the Spirit of Christ in the human spirit.Every wife, every husband,every servant, every master, every one old enough to know what the church life is should be calibrated to the one living Lord Jesus Christ within them.This to us believers is not a "take or leave it" "whatever!" matter. This is crucial and vital. That is why Paul says that in the Body of Christ, the church, Christ is all and in all. He is the fulness of the one who fills all in all.To bypass all of this and choke on respectful wives and non-insubordinate employee or servants is unfortunate. It is also unfotunate to miss the multitude of healthy spiritual teaching and fail to notice husbands willing to lay down their lives for their wives and masters treating their servants to what is just and equal.It gives the impression that one is going out of his way to pick a fight. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am all ears. The church needs to see how Christ's resurrection applies to the daily Christian experience. Did you not read the words of Jesus concerning His resurrection ? "Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:19) Because He will live in resurrection His disciples will also live. They will live in union with the resurrected and available Christ. The world will not longer behold Christ's physical presence. In spite of this Christ in His resurrection form will be the empowering transmission of His very presence by which the believers will live.Paul beautifully brings this out in his chapter on resurrection, First Corinthians 15, when he writes - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) In His physical resurrection Christ also transfigured Himself to be a divine life imparting, life dispensing, life transmitting Spirit. The last Adam became a life giving Spirit. I have already shown you that the availability of Christ as life giving Spirit is a cardinal truth in Paul's chapter devoted to the subject of resurrection - First Corinthians 15.There are many other places in the Corinthains letters where the availability of Christ is definetly taught. But let's move to Romans.What Christ has undergone, what Christ has attained, what Christ has obtained is FOR the daily life of the Christian disciples. His work is transmitted into the believers by mean of His indwelling availability as life giving Holy Spirit.The turning point in the book of Romans from a more objective Christ to a subjective Christ occurs in chapter 5:1.) The Christians are not only reconciled from being enemies, by His redemptive death. They will be subjectively saved in the whole realm of His life, His resurrection life. "For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10) In the whole sphere of His resurrection presence, much more the Christ will be saved. As to the past he HAS been reconciled in position. As to the future there is something much more for him - to be saved in the realm of Christ's life.2.) Subjectively throught the abundance of grace the believer can reign in divine life - " ... much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (5:17) This is not a defeated Christian. This is an overcoming Christian, victorious in her daily life, reigning in life through Christ's indwelling grace. The living Christ Himself becomes the gift of righteousness in a practical daily way. The believer can reign as one who overcomes.Remember - "Because I live, you also shall live." 3.) Romans six is very rich with the truth that the believer has died and risen with Christ. This is profound. What Christ has done can be transmitted into the believer so that he can apply Christ's work to himself. "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him." (6:8) We can live with Christ because Christ lives. "For [the death] which He died, He doed to sin once for all; but the life which He lives, He lives to God." (6:10) This is actually Jesus Christ Himself living in the believer a life to God. Christ blends with and mingles with the one who has believed INTO the resurrected and available Christ. " ... just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (6:4) This too is living in oneness with the resurrected Christ. And the believer can walk step by step in "newness of life" in union with Jesus Christ.4.) The death and resurrection of Christ are both available to the believer. His death kills off germs of the fallen nature. His resurrection imparts new divine life into the personality. But are a matter spiritual growth and encrease, of enlargement, development by gradual maturation - "For if we have grown together whith Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection." (5:5) All this and we have not even gotten into Romans chapter 8 yet, when all heaven breaks loose.Maybe I should reserve Romans 8 for a post or two dedicated to believers living in union with the risen Christ. Christ historical resurrection becomes the applicable resurrection and soul transforming work of the Holy Spirit.While the resurrected Christ as a life giving Spirit is operating to transform the believer, we are also eagerly expecting His physical return. This expectation is taught both in the gospels and in Romans.First early in the Roman epistle Paul writes of the coming judgment of God through Jesus Christ. This necessitates His second coming - " ... you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. " (2:5) "In the day when God judges the secrets of men according to my gospel through Jesus Christ." (2:16) But this is rather negative and in the early chapters of Romans where Paul is laying the foundation of justification by faith upon all those under condemnation. On a more positive aspect in Romans, we have the expectation of His return is linked with the manifestation of the sons of God in maturity - " ... if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him." (8:17) " ... the coming glory to be revealed upon us ... the anxious watching of creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God." (8:18)
" ... we ourselves groan in ourselves eagerly awaiting sonship, the redmption of our body." (8:23) " ... the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (8:21) In these passages Christ's comng from above and without is in conjuction with Him coming from within and glowing out from inside. This is like two ends of a circle meeting. He comes from above and He comes simulateneously from within some victorious matured ones.This maturation of the sons of God at His second coming may also be linked to His crushing of Satan under the feet of the Christians. For in reigning in life they have overcome Satan subjectively and rendered a great defeat to God's enemy - "Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (16:20) Of course the second coming of Jesus is explicitly taught in First Corinthians - "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorrujptible, and we will be changed.

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For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. When this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is wroitten will come to pass, "Death has been swallowed up unto victory" " ( 1 Cor. 15:51-54) What Paul here describes in First Cortinthians is also what he teaches in Romans about the redemption of the body at the Lord's coming and glorification of the saints.Ie. " ... we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagery awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." (Rom. 8:23) " ... and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (v.30c) The Paul of Romans and First Corinthians is also the Paul of Ephesians.Continued below.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Strictly speaking, after the original 12 apostles were no longer on the scene, was not the end of apostles.Even if through respect some dare not today to refer to themselves as "apostles" out of respect for the original 12, some do the work of apostles none the less.That the church should grow is not the necessity because of the departing of the 12 apostles. That is a necessity regardless. It is not that "The apostles are gone. So we must grown spiritually and mature!" Whether they be present or be departed the church should develop in the divine life and grow. This doesn't make too much sense to me. I see in the Thessalonian epistles, Paul simply keeping the young saints sober minded about signs concerning the last days.I have no idea what you mean about Paul trying to "smooth things over."It appears that Paul is rehashing some of Christ's dialogue in Matthew chapter 24. He is also going over some of the principles about the watching and ready parables of Christ's servants in Matthew.This is all Paul faithfully passing on what he knows of Christ's teaching. But more importantly what Paul himself has LIVED concerning Christ's teaching. Paul's life and ministry were one. Here is a man who lived what he preached and preached what he lived.I see not "smoothing over" of anything in the Thessalonian epistles. Many of us regard the Thessalonian church as being younger and probably consisting of relatively more recent believers of a younger spiritual age. Such needed this kind of fellowship. As well he should have. And as well as many saints since then also have. It is quite normal that we believers should eagerly await His return today.It is the slothful servant that Jesus said, said to himself "My lord is delaying his coming." This slothful one will be in danger of being caught off guard and unprepared for reward, though he be redeemed.It is entirely a non-issue to me that the Apostle Paul and the other apostles eagerly expected Christ's return. What parted lovers don't yearn to meet again - (in the sense that Christ is physically absent).Both Peter and Paul yearn for Christ to come soon. And both do not allow such an expectation to hinder them from preparing another generation or generations of Christians for a long distance run. I showed you that death with Jesus and rising with Jesus Paul spoke of as life long growth. This is transformation of the soul. This is being conformed to the image of Christ. "For if we have grown together with [Him] in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be abbulled, that we should no longer serve sins as slaves." (Rom. 6:5,6) This is very profound. But briefly it means that Jesus Christ is the beleivers history. He must believe that. He must apply that. He has been crucifed with Christ and raised with Christ and seated also with Christ. It is all with Christ. It is not on our own merit that we stand. We only identify with Christ in every way. It is His finished work that empowers us from within and operates as we believe.Paul told the Romans that they should not be ignorant of these truths. In other words they should SEE this revelation and live accordingly for it is effective to do so. " .. are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ?" (6:2) The Christian should not be ignorant of the truths of God in this universe. Christ's attainment is the believers' legacy and history.This is precisely what Paul teaches in Ephesisans when he says that Christ may make His home in our hearts through faith. We have to exercise our faith to let Christ the living One settle down in each and every chamber of our personality. He is faithful and will do it. "That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power thorugh His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:16,17) By FAITH we may apply the living and resurrected Christ into our very personalities. He can be formed in us. And believing that He is there to be our all and all He can renew our minds unto transformation. "And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing our the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2) Grow together with Christ.
Transformed by the renewing of the mind.
Christ making home in the hearts through faith.All these phrases refer to the resurrected Jesus dispensing Himself as life giving Spirit into every part of the believer's spirit and soul and eventually glorifying the physical body as well.In Romans Paul locates Jesus Christ in two places simultaneously. He is in the saints (Romans 8:9-11). And Christ is also at the right hand of God in the third heavens interceding (Rom. 8:34) So, the resurrection of Jesus was applicable, available, applyable for everyday normal Christian living. Ephesians is not only in Romans and the Corinthian epistles. Ephesians is in the four gospels.Ephesians is in Matthew and certainly in John. Paul was faithful.Jesus did not mention circumcision as Paul did. However Jesus mentioned the same principles as Paul taught concerning the Sabbath keeping and the dietary rules. Paul simply extended the same concepts to cover circumcision as well.With me attempts to drive some kind of wedge between Paul and Jesus will not work. I know the New Testament too well.This brother Paul pioneered in the way Jesus taught to an encredible degree. Thank God we had such an example. Instead of vainly trying to pit Christ and His apostle against one another, I am sure you should rather learn from them whom Jesus sent.

Does this history and rich bases include that fact that Jesus rose from the dead ? Or does this history and "rich bases" mean to you that Jesus is dead and buried ?My understanding of these epistles is bound up in my belief and agreement with the authors concerning Christ being resurrected and alive and available to be known.If you don't believe that Christ is available, regardless how glowingly you speak of historical importance and rich bases, your explanations are frought with hollow unbelief woeful lack of experience.Putting it bluntly, you wouldn't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. And my explanations, which are not that outlandish to Christian experience, would be like explaining a Beethoven symphony to a cow.Don't look now, but the purpose of every one of these Pauline epistles is to enrich the believers experience and enjoyment of the Jesus Christ who lives and can be known.I am not abusing the purpose of the writings in favor of trying to salvage some humanism from the supernatural essence of what Paul is writing about.Take Romans. Either the writer is mad, horribly self deceived, a vicious liar, or he's telling us the truth.I believe and expound Romans as Paul talking about realities as they actually are.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't see the contradictions.I regard the "contradictions" as your kind of mythology. Not being as gracious as you I suppose, I am not willing to assume them. I regard your insistance that Ephesians is a forgery not written by Paul as another instance of your kind of mythology.I think it has been amply demonstrated that there is no real contradiction between Philemon and Ephesians. I think it has been amply demonstrated that there is no contradiction between Romans and Ephesians. I never saw any contradiction in the things you discussed.
I think you manufactured some things, called them "contradictions" and based on that mythology you announced Ephesians as a forgery. The case of your contradictions just didn't have any effect on me.That a writer speaks of certain things in one letter and in another letter speaks further of them, does not constitute contradiction to me.I think your main source of hunting for contradictions was words related to wives and slaves. That Paul spoke here and added some more there doesn't signal contradiction to me. He elaborated further.If someone were to press me to find a contradiction between two or more things that the writer of the Pauline epistles taught, upon thinking real hard, I might submit some things.I would probably refer to them as paradoxical. I can think of some paradoxical pairs of statements in the 13 or so epistles traditionally attributed to Paul. None of these instances have anything to do with slaves or wives.Perhaps, Paul's instructions concerning single people and marriage contain some indication of his having changed his mind over the years. But even this is questionable. I think we were discussing the book of Ephesians.
My point here is that the word concerning the churching saints who are wives, husbands, slaves, masters, children, and fathers contain no substantial contradictions from one letter to another.And there is no real contradiction of the teaching of Jesus verses the apostolic ministry of Paul. Paul was exceedingly faithful to Christ.Someone may point out that Paul discussed circumcision and Jesus did not. I would agree. But there is no contradiction there. There is Paul extending principles taught by Christ concerning certain ordinances like the holy diet and Sabbath keeping which now caused to apply to circumcision as well. I think I am giving some voice to Paul's own words. I would not have liked to have heard such a thing said to me.I am sorry I had to say it - a little sorry. But the bovine lack of appreciation of what is going on in a symphonic composition could be compared to Paul's words that the carnal minded man "cannot" discern spiritually certain things that he wrote to the churches - "But a soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know [them] because they are discerned spiritually. " ( 1 Cor. 2:14) Because not everyone can discern the spiritual truths Paul was sharing, he prayed that even among the Ephesians, they would be granted a spirit of wisdom and revelation. He petitioned God that some of his audience in Ephesus would be granted by God that ability to "know what is the hope of His calling ...""That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know the hope of His calling .... etc." (Eph. 1:17,18)Don't be too bothered. There is much "cow" in all of us. I am sure that if we really saw what the Apostle Paul was talking about we would be beside ourselves with joy.I have a large amount of "cow" left in me also even after many years of loving Christ and the Scripture. My comments are going to be somewhat forced to relate the book of Ephesians.In Ephesians Paul spoke of the state of audience before becomming followers of Christ. He said that we were "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) When a man says that it is irrelevant whether Jesus was resurrected or not, it could be that he says so because he is "alienated from the life of God". He is estranged from Christ as the life of God.Jesus had taught - "I am the resurrection and the life"
He had said - " I am the way, the truth and the life ".
He had said that He came that we might have life and have it abundantly.In the Greek there the word life is the ZOE or divine life, the eternal life of God. Christ taught that He was the life of God become manifest.His resurrection from the dead is one seal of proof that He was the uncreated and indestructible life of God.Paul said that the unbelievers were "alienated [estranged] from the life of God".I am expounding Ephesians as one who has at least initially had this period of "alienation" from God's own life, terminated by receiving Christ.You may refer to all this as magic if it makes you feel comfortable. But all of Ephesians as well as the other letters of the New Testament concern the spiritual, the life of God, the supernatural.Studying them for just their historic significance may be the enjoyment of some people. I think enjoying them as bringing the reader on to contact God is better.But be encouraged. Just maybe Evolution Verses Creation website may decide to have a Bible Study room where believers in the Bible are excluded.In the meantime some of us will just have to appear to be speaking "magic". It certainly is a logical possibility.But one has to figure what profit to Paul was it to be so absolute for the deception ? What did it do for him besides involve him in many serious difficulties and eventual death at the hands of Nero ?Furthermore, since Paul admitted that about 500 people were around who saw the resurrected Christ, most of whom were still alive when he wrote that, it was rather bold. He would then have been writing to the Corinthian church mentioning 500 either equally deceived people or people who could readily contradict Paul concerning the resurrected Jesus. "For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, And that He was buried, and that He has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures;

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And that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve; Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain until this day, but some have fallen asleep;

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Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; And last of all He appeared to me, as it were to one born prematurely. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." (1 Cor. 15:3-9) Slightly under 500 contemporary people had to have been self deceived just like Paul. Otherwise from this number who had heard what Paul wrote to Corinth could easily come forward and correct the rumor that Christ had been raised on the third day.Self deception is not a strong case for Paul's behavior.Not only he speaks of 500 other witnesses to Christ having been raised. He admits this to those opposed to Christ as enemies of the Gospel.I do not mean that they believed. I do mean that he says to them in essence "You KNOW that all these things were being talked about in Jerusalem. You KNOW that a resurrected Christ was roundly being preached."It is one thing to say this before followers of Jesus who believe. It is another thing to say it before opposers of the Gospel telling them that they know good and well that many many were likewise to him, proclaiming Jesus as having been raised. This passage is in the book of Acts. I don't have time to look it up right now.Must go now. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The argument would be made by many of the other writers themselves. Though they loved Christ and wrote of Christ they appealed to Paul's letters for support. They regarded the apostolic writings as the foundation upon which they were building. The brothers who discovered the canon felt so. So they themselves would consider their writings, though perhaps good, as needing to be measured by the apostolic writings recognized to be Scripture. They themelves would consider Ephesians the letter as foundational.
In THAT sense - higher quality. You speak of "trying to understand the reality behind the ancient test ...". To me trying to understand the reality of the ancient texts definitely involves experiencing the Christ of whom the text elaborates SO MUCH concerning.The text says "that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith". Yet some expounders in discussing the text seem to talk about everything else BUT the Christ repeatedly mentioned in the letter.I wish you would go back through the entire epistle of Ephesians and COUNT the number of times Paul mentions directly or indirectly Jesus Christ - Him - His. Then compare that the some of your critical articles. Often the focus gravitates away to Ignatius, Polycarp, Tertullian, church history and many other matters but the Christ and God conveyed in the epistle.I think Richh's mention of high quality relates to the purity with which Christ is central, Christ is expounded, Christ is exalted, Christ is the center of the writing. How effectively does the writing impart wisdom calibrating the heart to Jesus Christ and living through Christ.You are correct that "current dogma and/or teachings" often are NOT supported by the ancient texts. For many of us there is no way around this problem but to love and experience the resurrected Christ that the text so emphatically teaches about.One poster said that this was "magic" used to explain problems of contradictions.The more I read Ephesians, with this attitude of foregery, the more it appears a ludicrous suspicion.There is much autobiographical in Ephesians - ie. "For this cause, I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you, the Gentiles ..." . And the writer goes on and on about his ministry from Christ.The suspicion that someone is lying as an imitator is not realitstic to me. I could take one of your posts and make a case that it was unlike the rest of your posts. Therefore I just know that on that day someone else in your house used your ID and decptively posted something in your name (albeit with some constructive purpose to appear to be purpledawn).Anyway, I must leave now to take someone to the airport. Wish I could write more.Okay, psuedo letters were written. No need to expoit that beyond a reasonable degree.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.