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Author Topic:   The Origin of Novelty
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 351 of 871 (691384)
02-22-2013 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 9:58 AM


Re: A calls out Taq for being wrong.
I am very fascinated by all the evolutionists who think that dwarfism is a novel function. I think its quite enlightening.
So how about my other examples, a cleft palate, being born with a stump for an arm, or with only half a heart-these would be novel functions as well? How about being born with Cystic Fibrosis?
I think you would be more accurate using the word "feature" than "function". Which is presumably why you prefer the latter term to the former.
Apart from that, if something is novel, it's novel. Novel doesn't mean good. If your head exploded, it would probably be the most original thing you've ever done, but that doesn't mean it would be a good thing.
A mutation which is spontaneous rather than inherited from the parents is novel at the moment that it arises. This is not a biological question, it's just English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 9:58 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 353 of 871 (691387)
02-22-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 10:24 AM


Re: A calls out Taq for being wrong.
I think evolutionists believe that given the right environment where this would be favorable, these people could proliferate ...
I think anyone not actually insane would agree that if there was an environment in which such a mutation was favored, then that environment would favor this mutation.
However, the fact that there is no such environment, and that we certainly don't live in one, allows us to describe this mutation as deleterious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 10:24 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 10:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 389 of 871 (691426)
02-22-2013 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 10:56 AM


Re:
So, this is a theory, apparently supported by many if not all of the evolutionists here, on how novel "features" arise in a population.
No. The theory is that novel features arise by mutation. The rest of your gibberish has nothing to do with that question.
I think at this point you're being willfully obtuse, such stupidity can hardly come by nature.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 394 of 871 (691431)
02-22-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 11:55 AM


Re: Natural selection
What I am learning from you is that there is no differentiating between a deformative developmental disease and any other mutation.
The difference would be that a disease is by definition deleterious, whereas some mutations are beneficial.
You really do seem to have some sort of mental block preventing you from learning biology. Why don't you just face the fact that you can't do it? Tone-deaf people shouldn't sing, you shouldn't try to talk about biology.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 11:55 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 398 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 463 by Admin, posted 02-23-2013 7:59 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 399 of 871 (691436)
02-22-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:04 PM


Re: Natural selection
No No No, Dr. A, I beg to differ. It has just been explained quite clearly by both Tempe and Taq and a few others I believe, that there is no difference between a disease and a mutation. It just depends on the environment.
Now you're just talking gibberish.
Which kinda proves my point.
I know that we've explained the theory of evolution to you already. If you just don't get it, that's nothing to be ashamed of. Talking gibberish about it when it's plain you don't understand it, on the other hand, is kind of shameful.
Why do you feel the need to disagree with Taq and Tempe so strongly?
Taq and Tempe did not write that "there is no difference between a disease and a mutation". That was gibberish that you made up in your head because of your mental problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:04 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 400 of 871 (691438)
02-22-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:08 PM


Re: Natural selection
Is dwarfism a disease Dr. A?
I wouldn't put it like that, that would be rude to dwarfs.
What I would say it that it is deleterious and so tends to be selected against.
Is there anything else really obvious that you need explaining to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:08 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 402 of 871 (691442)
02-22-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:01 PM


Re: Mutations are mutations, don't judge
Oh yes , you are so right tempe, it is so simple to just build an eye, step by step.
But lets not forget, if we are going to build it step by step, with RANDOM deformations (ok mutations, whatever) they have to happen at like random, you know like cleft palates. You wouldn't expect an undirected process to first cause the opening in the skull to happen exactly where the eye needs it first would you? I mean this is random, right? So these openings in the skull must happen everywhere, like cleft palates. We just need to be lucky enough that one day this cleft palate is actually more like a cleft lower forehead.
You can't expect a linear series of mutations to happen so precisely correct?
Unless, unless, the whole point of the mutation is to make an eye!!! I think I get it, its directed!
No no, wait, that's what I believe , not what you believe. So let's stick with what you believe to be more likely. Cleft palates turning into useful functions. That fits your theory better.
You really don't get it at all, do you?
As I say, this is nothing to be ashamed of. But there are only three options before you:
(a) Give up trying to talk about biology.
(b) Forget all the crap currently in your head and start again. (If you are genuinely as stupid as you come across as, this may not help.)
(c) Continue to humiliate yourself in public.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:01 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 456 by mindspawn, posted 02-23-2013 5:57 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 405 of 871 (691446)
02-22-2013 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:16 PM


Re: Natural selection
Now you are just talking gibbersih Dr. A.
You can't be doing that on accident Dr. A. If you don't want to learn something, then why are you here. Go read a book about biology, and come back when you can understand it.
BTW, did you figure out how to go back and reread posts yet?
Now, is dwarfism a disease or a mutation or a novel feature, or all three?
Let's try to make some progress about how your side thinks things like ears form.
That was gibberish combined with echolalia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:16 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 412 of 871 (691454)
02-22-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:22 PM


Re: Mutations are mutations, don't judge
Are you trying to show off your debate skills?
I'm giving you advice that you could profit from if you would take it.
The options I have given seem to be the only options before you. At the moment, you are going with option (c): you are simply degrading yourself in public while we watch and think: "Ah, yes, creationism".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:22 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 413 of 871 (691455)
02-22-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:24 PM


Re: Natural selection
And, according to you, it is a gaining in function.
He did not, of course, say this. But you can make yourself look ridiculous and dishonest by saying so, so go for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:24 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 415 of 871 (691457)
02-22-2013 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:44 PM


So you still don't understand the theory of evolution?
In other news, sun rises in east.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:44 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:50 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 417 of 871 (691459)
02-22-2013 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:50 PM


Let's all drink to not understanding the Theory of Evolution!
I'll propose my own toast, thank you.
"To understanding the Theory of Evolution! Simple, lucid, and obvious, if you're not mentally handicapped."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:50 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 418 of 871 (691464)
02-22-2013 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Bolder-dash
02-22-2013 12:20 PM


Re: Natural selection
And yet there are plenty of dwarfs that happen to live perfectly healthy long lives, right? So its not exactly selected against.
That's not how natural selection works. It's a statistical tendency, it doesn't go about smiting everyone with a single deleterious mutation with lightning bolts.
You really haven't grasped the theory of evolution at all, have you?
You seem to be using you world view bias to decide what is deleterious and what isn't. I think the evolutionists view is that all mutations are neutral (at least until the environment says otherwise), and some just so happen to catch on.
So according to you:
(a) My views tell me that mutations causing dwarfism in humans are deleterious.
(b) My views tell me that all mutations are neutral.
You're funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Bolder-dash, posted 02-22-2013 12:20 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 422 of 871 (691490)
02-22-2013 3:37 PM


OK, Let's State The Theory Of Evolution
We've done this before,but let's do it again. I don't suppose that Boulder-dash will understand it, but by now that's hardly the point. Boulder-dash won't understand anything
(1) Reproduction occurs, and offspring are quite, though not exactly, like their parents.
(2) There are things that make the offspring not exactly like their parents (as referred to in the previous point). These include mutation, recombination, and lateral gene transfer.
(3) These changes may make the resulting organism better, worse, or the same, at reproducing within the environment it finds itself in.
(4) There are factors that influence whether these changes will spread through the gene pool, namely natural selection (including sexual selection) and genetic drift. The effect of these factors will be to (statistically) favor those variations that favor reproduction over those that do not.
---
As an obvious corollary of these facts, the cumulative effect of this is that natural selection will favor and accumulate those variations which adapt an organism to its environment. So of course mutations can continue to accumulate in a line of descent until they are clearly distinct from the ancestral population; and for this reason lines of descent can branch to fill different environmental niches.
---
I do not of course expect Boulder-dash to understand any of this.

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 426 of 871 (691495)
02-22-2013 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Taq
02-22-2013 3:45 PM


Re: Balderdash the Game
Does anyone else find it ironic that Balderdash the board game involves fooling other people into accepting the wrong definition for a word?
Actually, I wonder if that's evidence that he's a deliberate troll.
It doesn't really matter to me either way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Taq, posted 02-22-2013 3:45 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 02-22-2013 4:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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