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Author Topic:   The Origin of Novelty
Taq
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Message 774 of 871 (695341)
04-04-2013 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 4:45 PM


Re: Bat fossil
You would need fossils that appear to be transitional between reptiles and the platypus,
And we have those.
http://cambrian.tripod.com/Reptile-Mammal
I have a sneaking suspicion that you missed my actual point here by focussing on my error in grammar.
What percentage of fossil bearing strata have humans searched for fossils, by your estimation?

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 777 of 871 (695353)
04-04-2013 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 776 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 5:41 PM


Exactly! That is why it is so faulty, because DNA is not available,
Quite the opposite. It is entirely independent of DNA which makes it that much more useful. The fact that two INDEPENDENT data sets produce similar phylogenies indicates that evolution is true.
If you take two fossils of similar time period, its impossible to really know if they are very similar yet contemporary , or are evolved ancestors. If the features fit evolutionary assumptions, then they are ASSUMED to be evolved, however that is as logical as saying an alligator evolved from a crocodile, or a crocodile evolved from an alligator, depending on which fossil survived the longest. The actual facts are unknown, evolution based on morphology is guesswork.
Then completely ignore the assumption that they evolved. Instead, organize them based on shared and derived features. Take that chart and then compare it to the a chart based on DNA. If the two match, then you have just confirmed evolution.
This is true, nevertheless the point is that we cannot know for sure if there is an ancestral relationship rather than a contemporary relationship, or a lack of relationship, based on morphology alone.
Quite right. Therefore, the only reason that phylogenies based on morphology should match up with phylogenies based on DNA is if evolution is true.
I already dealt with the Lucy joke, she has one human feature, and many ape features.
She has more than one human feature. Also, you are admitting that Lucy is transitional since she has a mixture of modern human and basal ape features.
Does this mean that we are descended from crabs, because we both have eyes, hahahahahaha.
We don't have arthropod eyes. However, the features we do share with crabs is due to common ancestry.
Just because Lucy, and gibbons and humans, have an upright Pelvis,
Lucy has a pelvis that is much more like a modern human pelvis than any other ape pelvis. This has already been shown to you. Why do you continue with such dishonest tactics?
A transitional fossil is any fossilized remains of a life form that exhibits traits common to both an ancestral group and its derived descendant group
That is with evolution added on top of the definition. A transitional fossil is still defined by a mixture of characteristics and nothing more. I don't see why you are getting confused. From the same article:
"Because of the incompleteness of the fossil record, there is usually no way to know exactly how close a transitional fossil is to the point of divergence. Therefore, transitional fossils cannot be assumed to be direct ancestors of more recent groups, though they are frequently used as models for such ancestors."
Transitional fossil - Wikipedia

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 779 of 871 (695357)
04-04-2013 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 778 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 6:15 PM


Re: Bat fossil
To assume some extinct creature with the lifestyle of a crocodile or sea-lion is an evolutionary "missing link" by placing it between a group of pictures of land creatures and a group of pictures of sea creatures is a big and unscientific jump of logic.
So you claim that evolution is not true because we lack transitional fossils. You claim that if evolution is true then we should see transitional fossils.
We produce the transitional fossils.
Now you claim that transitional fossils do not evidence evolution.
Talk about shifting the goal posts.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by mindspawn, posted 04-04-2013 6:38 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 781 of 871 (695360)
04-04-2013 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 780 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 6:31 PM


You said we do not get examples of highly similar phenotypes but differing genotypes. There are a number of examples of this phenomenon in the following link:
http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/Convergence.html
All of which only look at superficial features. They even list the shark and dolphin as convergent. Have you ever studied the anatomy of a shark and a dolphin?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 785 of 871 (695446)
04-05-2013 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 783 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 6:40 PM


You would sound less biased if you acknowledged that some OTHER examples in that link do actually prove my point.
They are all just as bad. They are all superficial similarities that do not compare specific anatomical features.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 786 of 871 (695448)
04-05-2013 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 782 by mindspawn
04-04-2013 6:38 PM


Re: Bat fossil
I said:
You said:
"To assume some extinct creature with the lifestyle of a crocodile or sea-lion is an evolutionary "missing link" by placing it between a group of pictures of land creatures and a group of pictures of sea creatures is a big and unscientific jump of logic."
And I clearly acknowledged this particular sequence as "succesful" even if I believe it proves nothing to artificially place fossils in an order of features.
So it proves nothing. Again, you are moving the goalposts.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 792 by mindspawn, posted 04-08-2013 4:38 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 788 of 871 (695465)
04-05-2013 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by NosyNed
04-05-2013 11:54 AM


Re: Are they all "just as bad"?
from: http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/Convergence.html
Of course, that doesn't prove his point but it does show that convergence can be so close it is hard to tell from actual relationships, no?
Fair enough.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 798 of 871 (695672)
04-08-2013 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 792 by mindspawn
04-08-2013 4:38 AM


Re: Bat fossil
Most sequences are frankly not convincing enough.
You are missing the big picture. You are missing the nested hierarchy. No fossil represents a gross violation of the nested hierarchy. We do not find any bird-mammal transitions. We do not find a croc-duck transitions. We only find the transitions that evolution predicts we should find. The theory passes the fossil test with flying colors.
The horse example always fails, because there were ancient species with hoofs existing at the same time as the 3 toed horse,
Then show us a 55 million year old horse with a single hoof.
You can however see short-term nested hierarchies, in ancient fossils, and today.
"Short-term"? What does that mean? The nested hierarchies extend all the way back to the phylum level and beyond. I would not consider that to be "short term".

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 824 of 871 (697215)
04-22-2013 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 820 by mindspawn
04-22-2013 12:03 PM


On the contrary , to deny that evolutionists have cherry picked a convenient sequence from the many species of ape found through the ages, is to "stare at the sky and declare it not blue". Seriously, I would like a logical answer as to why its not cherry picking??
Which fossils are they excluding?
It's not cherry picking because they use ALL of the fossils.
And as Dr. Adequate states, why are there cherries to pick to begin with? Why can't we find a feathered or antlered ape?
But why create these artificial sequences if your only evidence for evolution is the very artificial sequence you are creating??
What makes them artificial? Also, we have mountains of genetic evidence that you constantly ignore.
The difference is that I've tried to be unbiased by putting both theories on equal empirical footing, acknowledging that both theories can result in the details that we see in current genome sequencing.
The problem is that magical poofing can create anything. It is unfalsifiable. What you end up claiming is that if creationism is true it will look exactly like evolution occurred. You might as well argue that we should throw out all forensic evidence at a crime scene because it is also consistent with Leprechauns magically poofing fingerprints into being.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 825 of 871 (697216)
04-22-2013 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by mindspawn
04-21-2013 9:19 AM


The AUSTRALOPITHECUS is an ape.
Yes, an ape with human-like features not found in other living apes. This makes australopithecines transitional because they have a mixture of features from two divergent taxa.
You have the evidence right in front of you, but you choose to close your eyes.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 843 of 871 (697258)
04-22-2013 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 840 by mindspawn
04-22-2013 4:43 PM


Re: Which of those skulls are dated?
An in depth study trying to prove Lucy is more similar to apes than humans, compared Lucy to a chimp and not a gibbon.
I already compared them. I already showed you that Lucy's pelvis is much more human-like than it is gibbon-like.
Why do you ignore the evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by mindspawn, posted 04-22-2013 4:43 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 848 by mindspawn, posted 04-23-2013 2:27 AM Taq has replied
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 844 of 871 (697259)
04-22-2013 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 842 by Coyote
04-22-2013 5:40 PM


Re: Gibbon skeleton
Don't forget the human pelvis!!
Even without looking that the femur q-angle, I think the similarities are quite obvious to anyone who isn't blinded by creationism.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 854 of 871 (697304)
04-23-2013 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 848 by mindspawn
04-23-2013 2:27 AM


Re: Which of those skulls are dated?
I just do not agree that one feature, bipedal motion, is enough to state the organism is a transitional.
No one is claiming that birds, being bipedal, are transitional between basal apes and humans. Obviously, bipedality by itself is not enough.
However, australopithecines have a human-like pelvis, not a gibbon-like pelvis. Australopithecines have human-like features not found in other apes. Australopithecines also have features similar to other apes that are not found in humans. This makes australopithecines transitional by definition.
For that to be acceptable, you will need to show a series of transitional , various species, that are changing over time from a slim pelvis to the very wide pelvis, and then from the very wide pelvis, to a larger brain capacity.
That is exactly what we have, but you feel it necessary to ignore it. Even more, you make massive errors such as claiming the human pelvis is more like that of a gibbon than an australopithecine. How anyone can make that claim after being shown the anatomy of each species is beyond me. Perhaps you can explain why you continue with this charade?
It may not be your requirement, but its definitely a logical requirement, unless you wish to base the entire theory of evolution on what is a unique species with one major matching feature with humans.
The logical conclusion is that if evolution is true then these species existed in the past. However, there is no logical requirement that we should have found these fossil species after looking at such a tiny fraction of fossil bearing strata.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 848 by mindspawn, posted 04-23-2013 2:27 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 855 of 871 (697308)
04-23-2013 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 851 by mindspawn
04-23-2013 5:10 AM


Re: Novel protein coding gene in an Antarctic fish
Do you really think that is what they meant when they said "They already harbor latent reservoirs". The way you describe it, its as if the latent ability they referring to , is merely the ability to evolve one day.
That is exactly what they meant.
This is the subject of this thread, but I remain unconvinced.
We have already shown you multiple examples of changes in amino acid sequence that have resulted in beneficial phenotypes. If you are unconvinced by examples of exactly what you are asking for then the problem is yours, not ours.
No-one has EVER proved the process of duplication together with novel function. That is purely in the realm of speculation. If its shown to me that its possible in theory,
Which step in the process do you think is impossible?
You missed my point. The original clone of the E.Coli experiment already had an aerobic promoter in the rnk gene, This means that the organism was not always anaerobic, if one section of it already had a latent aerobic function. Thus the ability of E.Coli to develop aerobic functionality is NOT NOVEL, it was latent, as proven by the existing aerobic promoter.
The novel function is the ability to express a different protein in aerobic conditions. This required a mutation, specifically a recombination event. If this is latent, then we are right to describe latent features as those that are produced by mutation followed by selection.
Possibly. I thought the genetic overlap between mammoths and elephants was greater . But they could be two separate baramins.
How do you determine if two species belong to the same baramin?
Even out by two orders of magnitude, there should be millions of alleles in each locus. Not just 2000.
Can we see the math for this claim?

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 856 of 871 (697310)
04-23-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 847 by mindspawn
04-23-2013 2:18 AM


Lol, that was a good one! Yeah yeah I admit birds live in trees, but even so , they don't swing and jump from branch to branch.
Why would an ape with wings need to swing and jump from branch to branch? Why couldn't the ape move about like a bat? Why not give the ape feathers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by mindspawn, posted 04-23-2013 2:18 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 860 by mindspawn, posted 05-02-2013 6:01 AM Taq has replied

  
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