Summations Only

How many times do I have to point this out? That's exactly how the Hallam curve is constructed. Geologists have found the high-water mark, how else do you think they know how high the water got?

The fact remains that he is making a claim about the Flood. He's claiming that it's at the PTB. Now of course, Minspawn is free to believe as he likes, but in a science thread debate, if he wants any response other than "Well that's jolly nice for you", then he needs to make a positive case for it; a case that at some point has to go beyond mere plausibility and into actual positive evidence.It might be different if there were some reason why the evidence might reasonably be expected to be scarce, but that's not the case here. Despite Mindspawn's excuse-making, evidence for a worldwide flood ought to be very, very easy to locate.If all Mindspawn has is a plausible scenario where he ought to have abundant evidence, then when it comes to a science thread, he really has nothing.Mutate and Survive

This thread isn't about refuting the flood. That has been done in a myriad of other threads. You have ample opportunity to back up your guesswork over there.In this thread, you need to substantiate your wild guesses.

I speak creationist. By "assumptions" you mean "scientific laws", yes? Translated from creationist into English?

Yes, except that the premise for this thread is that the Flood happened. Mindspawn should not be required to prove conclusively that there was a flood unless someone raises such conclusive proof that there was no flood to close off all possible discussion.Of course mindspawn attempts to spit into that particular wind were failures. But in a sense, those arguments are cheating. You are supposed to have that hand tied behind your back.Perhaps an example of a situation where mindspawn can be said to be playing the game correctly even for a science thread would illustrate my point. Someone proves that some particular fauna shows more diversity than can result from a mere pair of them on the ark. A perfectly legitimate counter is to ask why that person thinks that the particular animal is unclean. (Assuming that multiplication by seven would be enough to address the issue)In such a situation, I don't believe it is mindspawn's issue to prove that the fauna in question is actually clean at least until the questioner raised significant proof that the animal is unclean. In fact, I think he was fairly successful at casting doubt on whether we actually know which animals were which.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Well you are right about that I suppose. Truth is, this thread has been pretty far from the topic most of the time. Instead it's seen far more useful discussion. After all, it seems like a waste of time discussing a hypothetical ark when mindspawn has been kind enough to provide us with a testable date for the Flood. When mindspawn repeatedly insists upon a PTB Flood he just provides too tempting a target. Further, all of his reasoning for the ark gets tied back to the PTB. Seems like a waste to ignore it. If his idea of what would happen after the Flood involves Triassic fauna, you shouldn't be surprised when opeople demand evidence for a Triassic Flood.Besides, I gave the man the proof he asked for, whether the burden was on me or not, so I don't see much basis for complaint.Mutate and Survive

As a simple answer to a quite straightforward question:I would say that the animals that are omnivorous wouldve had an upper hand to begin with. After that Id say that those which were resilient and fast. After having ticked some boxes what do we have left - bears, hedgehogs, possums, chimpanzees,many monkeys, raccoons....OTOH those with an extremely specilized diet and the slowest wouldve been most likely first to be extinct.

Hope you do know that palosoils are the opposite of flooding. Especially when you consider that vertically there's more than one palosoil horizon present. The word 'soils' in it should have given you a hint.From GARY, M., MACAFEE R (JR), and WOLF, C. L. (eds), 1977. Glossary of Geology. American Geological Institute. Your global flood at the P-T boundary has been debunked by palosoils in the Karoo Sequence alone. You should read up on those biozones, too.

Early Turkish caves:
Page not found | Campus Web Services Could you kindly back up your statements with evidence when you confidently state that the earliest buildings were not found in Turkey. The earliest building is the Gobekli Tepe temple in Turkey:
Gbekli Tepe - Wikipedia
Ancient surprises in TurkeyKindly note that the stone carvings on this temple most resemble the early Triassic predator, cynognathus. I agree that Shinar is in Mesopotamia. this agrees with my point, rather than contradicts my point. As for the elongated timeframes of evolutionists, that is a topic for another thread.Just for interest sake, many early civilizations show an understanding of Triassic/Jurassic fauna, which is fascinating:Angor Wat Gobekli Tepe, turkey: Egypt: etc etc etc etc ?? It is on the Arabian Plate. I do realize that I'm doing most of the research on this thread, but kindly have the courtesy to research your comments in future. I showed evidence for the first human settlements spreading out from Turkey. The first building in Turkey, the first cities in Mesopotamia (Sumeria) This is what archaeology tells us. I see the Triassic as a short compressed period of deserts coming to life after a huge disaster. Humans were only in the Middle East at that time, the lack of humans worldwide humans during the Triassic is a confirmation of their concentration in the Middle East. The very first building shows a Triassic predator carving. In what way have I misinterpreted that sentence? He claims the extinctions had less effect on the higher latitudes, where do you think a small population of humans would live? In disaster regions affected by major extinctions? Or in stable regions? Higher latitudes were more stable during the Permian extinctions. Hallam/Wignall states a strong case for Permian angiosperms. Which confirms what I am saying. A Permian animal flourishes in the post-flood desert landscape. Lystrosaurs have amphibian features, I showed the link.Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

In this thread I already posted evidence for beans that float and then germinate in salty soil. Percy posted evidence that in a year, soil can recover for plants to grow on. I showed that the olive seed is particularly suited to salty soil, and soaking. I referred to Howe who demonstrated that various seeds can survive 140 days in saltwater.
The bible says:
Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.Birds were on the ark "to keep seed alive". It seems they already had plans in place regarding seeds (I guess grass seeds are included). If I was on the ark, I would have kept huge piles of seeds on pallets, but under roofing. In this way I could have ensured the survival of plants and birds, because birds feed on seeds, and in this way they are one of the most effective distributors of plant life.BBC Four - The Life of Birds, The Insatiable Appetite, Sowing the seed
"All over the world birds distribute seeds by eating fruit."Page not found - Boundless
"Another form of seed dispersal is via ingestion by vertebrates; this is the typical dispersal mechanism for most tree species. In tropical rain forests, more than 90% of trees are thought to be dispersed in this way. In most cases, the plant and animal have coevolved a mutualistic relationshipthe animal obtains nutrition from the fruit, nut, or seed, and the seeds are dispersed when the animal deposits them in feces. Usually birds and mammals are involved in this type of seed dispersal"The seawater was not as salty then, and so the damage to soil would not have taken a full year as can happen nowadays. This predator argument has never been backed up by any evidence. what was the predator/prey ratio on the ark? How many predators were there back then , when DNA analysis show that most canus lupus/felidae show a recent phylogenetic tree from a common ancestor. ie there were not many original predator species. All these questions have to be answered before you can say "impossible".Also please consider that there were actually many many extinctions then, which fits in with what you are saying. But I see the impossibility of survival with a planned exit from the ark, as pretty far-fetched, I need evidence.Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

Could you kindly point out a link or any evidence for this. If you have already done so, please direct me to the post , for obvious reasons I am very interested in any claimed high-water mark during the P-T boundary.

Please show your evidence for a lack of a genetic bottleneck 4500 years ago.

Genes are involved. It relates to allele frequencies. There are trillions of possible allele combinations. Unique combinations can produce unique features. you think?

You sure did. Sadly cows, camels, antelope etc etc eat grass not beans. You don't have a year, you have a few days. But you didn't explain how an olive tree could grow in a few days. You did not show how grass seeds can survive a year under several thousand feet of salt water, then germinate in mud meters thick. Right, so now we have a few birds eating the grass seed and flying around shitting.The thing about birds eating grass seeds is that they digest them. That's what they live off. Seeds that are distributed by birds are from soft fruit where the birds feed off the outer coat and shit the hard pips.Sorry wrong seeds again. Yup, that's right, FRUIT. TREES. Yup, Fruits and nuts.And how long do you imagine this process takes? Your birds and animals are let loose into the world and immediately start shitting, how long before the fruit trees take to grow in this salty mud? They have about 2 weeks before they starve - is this where we get the miracle? Right. If you were on the ark...... pfnrrrrrrSadly, the birds digest grass seeds. But if they didn't, you'd need thousands of them to distribute your seeds. Apart from our doves, the birds were released with all the other animals so even if they shat a mountain of seeds and even if the seeds grew in salt laden mud, the herbivores all died of starvation before they could grow. (Those few that survived the carnivores that is.) HahahahaHere's an interesting fact for you to chew on and make something up about: Good luck growing that from bird droppings.

Your link does not support your claim that the earliest inhabited caves are in Turkey, and the dating contradicts your model. But more importantly, how do you decide the age of such sites if you do not accept scientific dating methods?Anyway, there are cave remains ranging from Africa to south-east Asia that have been dated to more than the 45,000 yrs. BP. Here's a recent example from Laos.The Turkish stone building site, Gbekli Tepe, you mention may be the earliest known stone building, but it's easier to build in wood, and if you accept the Turkish dating, you have to accept this: 11,500 yr old building in BritainAnd no-one is suggesting that that hut is likely to be anywhere near the first in the world!Edited by bluegenes, : Added link