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Author | Topic: The Awesome Republican Primary Thread | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You guys have a tenth of our population and 75% of you live within 100 miles of our border.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6
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I know people who's hours are being cut to 29 per week as that is the maximum they can work before their employer has to provide them with insurance, iirc. I know a guy who is trying to go from an hourly wage for 40 hours per week to a salaried position at 29 hours per week for whatever pay it has to be to equal what he makes at his current wage over 40 hours. Then he'll put in the same amount of time for the same pay, but it'll look like he's only working 29 hours and his employer won't have to pay for his insurance (they're telling him that they can't afford it and are looking at options). This sort of thing has been happening for a long time - since long before "Obamacare" was even the original Republican healthcare reform plan. Even within a company that offers health insurance, very often they manipulate the hours of certain classes of employees to ensure that they never quite cross the threshold to be eligible for those benefits. It happened to me and all of my coworkers when I worked retail - you had to be management to cross the magic 32-hour-week barrier and receive any sort of benefits. Some businesses are now being forced to offer healthcare where they weren't before, and now they're playing the same game that their bigger cousins have been playing for decades. Others are just doing what they've always done, but they'll blame Obamacare this time around because it's an easy scapegoat.
My cousin is starting up a business. He bought a steel building that has to be built. The company that sold him the building said they would charge him $44,000 to construct it. He shopped around for other prices, including some unions. The cost the unions bid was $66,000 - $77,000. He told me that there's no way he could afford that much. Now, our other friend who works for the union is telling him to be careful because if the union finds out that he goes non-union, then they'll probably picket his new business. The town it's in has a lot of union workers and that could really ruin his business. We asked: "Well, can't he just build it himself?" Isn't a man allowed to build his own building on his own property without the union bullying him? They said that that would probably be okay. Then I said, well what if I helped him out for free? We're family. Can't a guy and his family build a building? Hmm, probably still okay. (Geez, I can't believe we have to get permission for this). We went further: what if we have a non-family friend that helps for free. "Hmm, that's probably pushing it, they said". That's just retardiculous, in my arrogant opinion. Why, CS, that's just free market capitalism and the freedom of speech at work! Do you hate freedom?! But seriously, the better working conditions and benefits negotiated by unions do add cost to whatever project. Obviously. Paying for a dental plan costs more than not paying for a dental plan. And unions don't "bully," they merely exercise their right to free speech - there's absolutely nothing wrong with a bunch of guys showing up at a non-union shop and letting the public know that Business X doesn't support unions. It's not like the unions are going to beat customers or employees with baseball bats if they cross the picket line - that would land the union guys in jail. They'll just walk around making some noise and waving signs that tell customers and employees "this guy didn't use a union to build his building, and we union members don't like that because it threatens to weaken our position in bargaining for better working conditions." You buddy isn't entitled to get to build a building or start a business. If he doesn't have the cash, he doesn't have the cash, same as me or anyone else. In this case he could go non-union, and he has the freedom to make that choice, just as the union guys have the freedom to choose to picket him. But look - this is what I see going on from my perspective. You're bringing up individual anecdotes representing what you see as flaws in the ACA. We know the ACA is flawed. We know it's not perfect. Most of us who think it's a "good thing" really just think it's significantly better than what we had before, not as good as we could (and should) have done. I'd much rather see single-payer, something like Medicare for all. It'd be super simple - just lower the Medicare eligibility age to 0, and organize the new funding and staffing requirements with a few years buildup time to supplement the existing infrastructure. Make sure that Medicare is allowed to bargain for pricing with care providers and pharmaceutical companies. Allow private insurance in excess of what Medicare covers. Done deal - you could probably write a law for something like that in less than 20 pages, even in legalese - as I recall, Canada's version only took 14 pages. No tax penalties, no health exchanges. But pointing out anecdotal examples of negative outcomes, even where accurate (because some of what you've posted is not actually due to the ACA), is not actually a strong argument against the ACA. The ACA will result in millions of Americans getting healthcare when they did not have it before. The ACA does mean that plans with inadequate coverage will be replaced by better plans, improving the care available to the people who had the old plans. The ACA does mean that the most vulnerable people, the poor, the unemployed, and those with pre-existing conditions, will have better access to healthcare services than they have ever had before. For someone with a pre-existing condition, the ACA will literally save their life in many cases. I'd take having my hours reduced at work over letting someone die because they couldn't afford the health insurance and the pills that would have prevented their illness from progressing to a terminal stage. Please remember, I used to be very close to someone with HIV, I've been in my local AIDS clinic many, many times - believe me, the ACA is a literal life-saver just for that one provision alone. The ACA, like any other policy change, needs to be looked at in its totality. You cannot focus exclusively on the good or the bad - you have to consider the total net outcomes, and see whether the total balance comes out ahead of or behind where we were before. I think the ACA is an improvement, a step in the right direction, taken as a whole on a preliminary basis. I'd still much, MUCH rather see Medicare for all. But your anecdotes haven't really been particularly persuasive.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
Right. So your notion that universal medicare only works in geographically small nations with dense populations is nonsense. It sorta almost works here too. You guys have a tenth of our population and 75% of you live within 100 miles of our border. There doesn't seem to be any reason why it wouldn't work in the US. The reason you don't have it seems to be because you're doctrinaire idiots.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Well I know this is not true because unions do not bid on construction projects. Hmm. Three different unions gave him numbers on how much it would cost him to hire them to construct his building. Maybe "bid" isn't the right word.
Unions do not care about or picket projects this size. Well geez, who do I believe? My friend Amanda who works in the union office down the road and who was talking to me face to face in my cousin's house, along with my friend Tony who is in a union and explained that if they told him to picket then he would regretfully have to join in and picket his own friend as he doesn't have a choice.... or do I believe some random jerk on the internet?
Just to pretend this is reality, have the company that sold him the building build it. We're looking for something cheaper. The unions came up as a joke because their pricing was so ridiculous. Amanda and Tony just happened to be there and that's when the whole picketing thing came up.
The problem you have is not with unions it is with local building codes and financing when you do a self build. No, neither of those things are a problem.
So all your anecdotes are pure bullshit with no basis in reality. I suppose its possible that the conversation I just had in real life face-to-face with people that I've known for year and work for a union was all just a dream, or something.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Do you even understand the argument you tried to make originally?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
So your notion that universal medicare only works in geographically small nations with dense populations is nonsense. I didn't mean to imply that.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
There doesn't seem to be any reason why it wouldn't work in the US. We have these things called "Republicans".Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But your anecdotes haven't really been particularly persuasive. I wasn't trying to be persuasive, I was just conversatin' with that other guy. He said he was curious. And the part I wrote about the union wasn't supposed to have anything to do with the ACA.
Some businesses are now being forced to offer healthcare where they weren't before, and now they're playing the same game that their bigger cousins have been playing for decades. But you've moved from company policy (32 hours = benefits) to a federally mandated policy. The resulting chopping of hours is, actually, due to the federal mandate and not company policy. So its right to blame that on Obamacare (and the dirty companies that would do that to their workers).
Why, CS, that's just free market capitalism and the freedom of speech at work! Do you hate freedom?! I'm allowed to call them bullies and say how stupid their behavior is.
You buddy isn't entitled to get to build a building or start a business. If he doesn't have the cash, he doesn't have the cash, same as me or anyone else. In this case he could go non-union, and he has the freedom to make that choice, just as the union guys have the freedom to choose to picket him. I just think its funny that you have to get the union's permission to build your own building on your own property so you can be comfortable that they're not going to try to ruin your new business.
We know the ACA is flawed. We know it's not perfect. Most of us who think it's a "good thing" really just think it's significantly better than what we had before, not as good as we could (and should) have done. I don't think its ever a good thing to force people into participating in a program through threat of punishment.
I'd much rather see single-payer, something like Medicare for all. It'd be super simple - just lower the Medicare eligibility age to 0, and organize the new funding and staffing requirements with a few years buildup time to supplement the existing infrastructure. Make sure that Medicare is allowed to bargain for pricing with care providers and pharmaceutical companies. Allow private insurance in excess of what Medicare covers. Done deal - you could probably write a law for something like that in less than 20 pages, even in legalese - as I recall, Canada's version only took 14 pages. No tax penalties, no health exchanges. That sounds way better than the ACA. Expensive. But better as far as outcomes actually go. Shit I gotta go do work.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Three different unions gave him numbers on how much it would cost him to hire them to construct his building. Maybe "bid" isn't the right word. Wrong again. Unions have nothing to do with the pricing of jobs. Unions do not do the building. Union members do, but they are employees of contractors that use union labor. So your anecdote is still bullshit. Want to try again?
Well geez, who do I believe? My friend Amanda who works in the union office down the road and who was talking to me face to face in my cousin's house, along with my friend Tony who is in a union and explained that if they told him to picket then he would regretfully have to join in and picket his own friend as he doesn't have a choice.... or do I believe some random jerk on the internet? More bullshit. What union? Again unions do not care about a project this size.. There is no money in a 70k project to be worth the effort. Reality and common sense.
No, neither of those things are a problem.
Have you ever built a building or had one built.
I suppose its possible that the conversation I just had in real life face-to-face with people that I've known for year and work for a union was all just a dream, or something. You talk like Union is some big monolithic group that controls everything. What union do your friends work for? There are many unions and many reasons for them.
We're looking for something cheaper. The unions came up as a joke because their pricing was so ridiculous. Well you know what happens when you go with the lowest bid. Again, UNIONS DO NOT PRICE JOBS OR BID ON PROJECTS. That would be the contractor or builder who may be using union labor. So this part of your story is either bullshit or you misunderstand the specifics and reality of the situation. That non-unionized contractors are cheaper than unionized contractors is not born out by the data. Here is one study. http://www.ijeme.org/paperInfo.aspx?PaperID=4763Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I just think its funny that you have to get the union's permission to build your own building on your own property so you can be comfortable that they're not going to try to ruin your new business. But this is not true. If it were it would be extortion, which is a federal offense. They would be within their rights to informational picket a place that is using non-union labor. They would not be within their rights to picket a place that is self built. When was the last time you saw an informational picket?
I don't think its ever a good thing to force people into participating in a program through threat of punishment.
What do you think the whole system of laws are? I guess parents shouldn't have to make their kids go to school. Your argument has now gone to ridiculous.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Here are more studies showing that the idea that Unions or prevailing wage drive up costs is bullshit.
http://constructionacademy.org/...n-industry/prevailing-wageFacts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
They would be within their rights to informational picket a place that is using non-union labor. They would not be within their rights to picket a place that is self built. That's what A&T were saying. If he builds it himself then they won't picket it. If he contracts it to non-union workers then they probably will. But what if he does it himself but hires non-union people to do the work with him? They weren't sure about that one and said they might picket it. That's when I said that I'd help him for free so he wouldn't have to hire non-union workers. He could always pay me later under the table. So, I guess we'll have to run it by the union guys to see if they'll let him build it without trying to ruin his new business. But I do agree that this is pretty much extortion.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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You guys have a tenth of our population and 75% of you live within 100 miles of our border. So now it's not to do with surface area, but ... I dunno, because economies of scale work exactly the opposite way to how they actually do?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
And I still call bullshit. I noticed you cannot tell me what Union these people are part of.
Unions care about big projects that are non-union. They dont give a crap about a 70k project. If he contracts it to non-union workers then they probably will.
Now that wouldn't be building it himself would it?You really need to rehearse this story a little better. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
And I still call bullshit. Like I give a fuck. Your reading comprehension is abysmal.
I noticed you cannot tell me what Union these people are part of. Amanda works in the office for one union and Tony is a working member of another. I don't know which unions they are off the top of my head but I could call them on the cellphones and ask. I'm not going to, though, because I don't care enough and you're being a dick.
They dont give a crap about a 70k project. Amanda said that her guys were slow right now and they would want the work, and also said that she could probably get a better price.
If he contracts it to non-union workers then they probably will.
Now that wouldn't be building it himself would it? Gosh you're dumb. Of course that wouldn't. There's 3 scenaios: We contract union. No picket.We contract non-union. Picket. We do the work ourselves. Maybe picket depending if we hire non-union workers to help us, we don't know. You really need to rehearse this story a little better. I just talked to these people on Sunday and am relaying from memory what we discussed.
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