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Author Topic:   What Does Critical Thinking Mean To You?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 19 of 339 (721858)
03-12-2014 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Diomedes
03-12-2014 11:13 AM


Confindence vs faith
As a sidebar, 'faith' is often used somewhat ambiguously. One can say they have 'faith' that their car will start in the morning. But it isn't a spiritual statement. At least, for most of us. One would probably be better off saying they have 'confidence' that their car will start in the morning.
Exactly. We can have confidence in concepts that have been tested, the more they are tested, the more confidence we have. When we find agreement\consilience with results from different processes this too increases confidence.
Confidence should never be considered absolute, while faith can be. Faith is more like trust, and it is more of an emotional aspect.
This does not mean that there is no room for faith in critical thinking, just that one should be wary, we can have faith in an assumption that is not tested, based on our core beliefs and knowledge (our worldview), but we should be wary because it is untested.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 20 of 339 (721859)
03-12-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
03-12-2014 1:10 PM


Ultimately, from my view, faith at its core level means accepting something with limited to no evidence. Or perhaps, accepting something despite contrary evidence.
Delusion is also accepting things despite evidence to the contrary. How do you draw a line between Faith and delusion?
Indeed the definition of delusion is believing something in spite of contradictory information.
An example is believing that the earth is younger than 10 or 12 thousand years old -- there is massive evidence that contradicts this belief.
To me this is an indicator of the possible validity of a belief system -- with an inverse relationship to the number/s of evidence that must be denied to maintain the belief/s.
To me, critical thinking is a method of applying logical evaluation to concepts to see how they fit against one's worldview. This takes it a step beyond the application of the scientific method, building on it to include aspects that are not amenable to that method.
Thus, rather than limiting one-self to only concepts that are tested, one limits one's worldview to allow tested concepts and concepts that are not contradicted, and maintaining skeptical acceptance\confidence in an inverse relationship to the degree of testing.
Is a concept tested?
  1. if yes, then was it contradicted\invalidated by the results?
    • if not, then we can have a fair degree of confidence in it being valid;
    • if it was, then we can have confidence in it being invalid\misinformed.
  2. if not, then we can have very little (if any) confidence of it being valid or invalid -- it's in limbo, as it were.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 27 of 339 (721884)
03-13-2014 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by PaulK
03-13-2014 3:09 AM


That really isn't a definition (or if its intended as one it's hopelessly wrong. You can't define a method by its outcome - a method is a way of attempting to achieve a desired outcome)
Why should it be a definition? One could as easily say (paraphrase):
Critical thinking is what leads to acceptance of valid things.
And I have no trouble with that statement: that is the goal is it not?
Critical thinking is careful evaluation of claims and the evidence available. And to do it properly you have to apply it to everything. The real test of a critical thinker is applying it to overcome your own biases, ...
Logically and unbiased. Open-minded, yet skeptical.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 339 (721894)
03-13-2014 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 8:38 AM


Because the definition is useless. ...
Again I did not see it as being a definition, just a statement.
Finally, critical thinking alone is not sufficient to lead to acceptance of only valid things.
Elucidate.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 31 of 339 (721895)
03-13-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by PaulK
03-13-2014 8:56 AM


... all it tells us is why Faith is so often wrong.
Are you sure that this is not your biases talking rather than just taking it as an "uncontroversial statement" ?
Seems to me that you are reading more into it than is there.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 34 of 339 (721913)
03-13-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 10:19 AM


There is still the garbage in/garbage out problem. ...
Indeed GIGO is a common problem (hence it even has an acronym), even in scientific inquiry, however I don't see how this can "lead to acceptance of only valid things" without employing critical thinking to separate the good from the garbage.
... also the problem with factors that are purely or almost purely subjective.
It seems to me, that once we have exhausted the realms of things that can be tested we are basically left with opinion, and no matter how well informed that opinion is, it is still subjective; an educated guess is a subjective opinion.
I would think that this is where critical thinking would be most applicable, to be aware of and wary of personal opinions and biases.
Or do you have some method to separate the wheat from the chaff without critical thinking? Some kind of litmus test?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 88 of 339 (722019)
03-14-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
03-13-2014 2:32 PM


I suggest that it interfered with critical thinking. Despite your best efforts, you do not have the ability to reject all of the garbage and all of the diamonds.
Which is why you are skeptical even when tested, looking to hone or tune the result/s with further testing.
And a subjective opinion may be the best you can do and that result might still be wrong. So it interferes, sometimes fatally with critical thinking reaching only valid results.
Which is why you are skeptical even when tested, looking to hone or tune the result/s with further testing.
Keeping an open mind you can (and most likely necessarily do) consider this to be the best approximation to {reality} you can reasonably obtain at this time, yet it is subject to change.
The interference imho comes not so much from considering them, but in resistance to revision when more information suggests it.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 114 of 339 (722106)
03-15-2014 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
03-15-2014 12:22 PM


Re: Evaluating Our Experiences
If there IS no evidence but stories, it's stupid to dismiss the stories, it's all you've got.
And all you've got is anecdotal evidence at best, untested subjective personal experience (which could be hallucination).
At best suggesting a line of inquiry or investigation before committing to an opinion.
Critical thinking demands skepticism in an absence of transferable evidence.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 153 of 339 (722224)
03-18-2014 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
03-18-2014 11:08 AM


Rejection with no evidence for rejection
Really? Critical thinking means that you have no ability to reject anything not proven wrong? Because if that is the case, then I submit that nobody uses critical thinking.
Yep.
If you accept something without evidence for it you are not using critical thinking.
If you reject something without evidence against it you are not using critical thinking.
If there is neither evidence for nor evidence against then the logical conclusion is that it is neither validated nor invalidated.
Edited by RAZD, : ]

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 155 of 339 (722229)
03-18-2014 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
03-18-2014 7:08 PM


Re: Rejection with no evidence for rejection
So when people reject God only because there is no evidence for God, rather than because there is evidence against God, then that is not critical thinking?
I don't buy that at all.
What is different about accepting "A" without evidence for "A"
and accepting "notA" without evidence for "notA"
and
What is different about not accepting "A" without evidence for "A"
and not accepting "notA" without evidence for "notA"
Does not critical thinking involve the proper use of logic? Do you not agree that the absence of evidence is only evidence for the absence of evidence?
Is it really critical to make such a decision when no evidence points either way?
Please evaluate your biases before replying.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 164 of 339 (722289)
03-19-2014 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
03-19-2014 11:45 AM


Re: Rejection with no evidence for rejection
RAZD writes:
Is it really critical to make such a decision when no evidence points either way?
Sometimes it's necessary to make a decision when no significant evidence points either way. You might not want to call it "critical thinking" but you still have to make the decision. In such cases, no monsters is the default position.
For you, but not for a believer. The default position is your worldview beliefs: that will be the basis for any decision without clear answers, and it will not be critical thinking so much as blind reaction.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 180 of 339 (722386)
03-20-2014 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ringo
03-20-2014 11:55 AM


Re: Rejection with no evidence for rejection
Worldview beliefs don't always apply. If you come to a fork in the road you have to make a choice. ...
If it is a choice, then your worldview affects the choice you make; your experiences, your knowledge your beliefs, all go to what choices you make.
... The bridge might be out on one road but with no evidence one way or the other, the default position is that the bridge is okay.
Or your default position might be to take the one less traveled by, in which case you might expect the bridge to be in need of repair ...
... which depends on your purpose in going down the road in the first place. And that too depends on your worldview.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 181 of 339 (722387)
03-20-2014 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by ringo
03-20-2014 12:12 PM


Re: Rejection with no evidence for rejection
I was responding to the question, "Is it really critical to make such a decision when no evidence points either way?" My point is that in some situations, critical thinking only takes you so far and then your default position, critically, is that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Again, this is your "default position" - your assumption\opinion\belief - based on your worldview, and not necessarily anyone else's default position.
For instance a person that knows absolutely nothing about climate change doesn't necessarily need to believe that it is not happening when he has not seen any evidence of change that would convince them ...
Edited by RAZD, : i

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ringo, posted 03-20-2014 12:12 PM ringo has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 187 of 339 (722493)
03-21-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Tangle
03-21-2014 12:39 PM


If you tell me that there is a statue in a church of the Virgin Mary it is rational of me to accept your assertion because my life experience tells me that that is quite possible - statues often hang out in churches. If you have no history of lying to me randomly about everyday events and there is no other reason to suspect that you could be mistaken there is no logical reason to doubt you.
This is the Antecedent Probability Principle. I accept what you tell me because it lies within what I know to be probable.
It fits with your worldview.
If, however, you also say "and it's hovering 6 feet off the floor" I then have cause to doubt. I know from experience that statues don't hover and that there is a greater likely hood of your assertion being false - for whatever reason. If I am to behave rationally I must assume you are mistaken.
It doesn't fit with your worldview.
If someone chooses to accept weak evidence for extraordinary events above their known experience of the physical world they are therefore thinking irrationally.
Or one could take a scottish verdict position ...
To reject evidence just because it is weak is not critical thinking imho.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 189 of 339 (722497)
03-21-2014 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
03-21-2014 12:05 PM


Re: Rejection with no evidence for rejection
The topic is about what critical thinking means to me.
Silly me I thought it was started to put Phat in the fire ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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