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Author Topic:   The Search for Moderate Islam
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 111 of 432 (737221)
09-19-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Jon
09-19-2014 4:38 PM


The Middle East
The Middle East has been at war with itself since before the Americas were even discovered. Pretending that the West is responsible for these conflicts is just a veiled attempt to inflate your own sense of importance in the world.
The West did not cause the instability of the Middle East, even if its attempts to fix the problem have often failed or even made matters worse.
It might be chic to pretend that the Crusades never 'really ended', but it is by no means factual.
Well it was the Crusades (and the Reconquista). Then the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire wasn't 'at war with itself', just a few conflicts with Persia and the like. But they collapsed around WWI and their former territory was divided up by France and Britain (Sykes—Picot Agreement) and some of it promised to the Jews (Balfour Declaration). Some Arabs tried to assert independence but Europe's superior position gave them the power. Jews were given the all clear to start moving into the region of Palestine.
Then came the revolutions and struggles for independence, some worked out (eg., Syria, Egypt) others didn't (eg., Iraq, 1941 (courtesy of the British (Saddam was about 4 years old at the time))).
As WWII built up and took place, the rest of the nations declared independence. Afterwards the British left the area completely leaving behind the new State of Israel in a social context of Arab Nationalism vs Zionism resulting immediately in the 1948 war. Mini-Hitlers were being spawned all over the place as people started to promise to destroy the now hated Israel and well.... the rest is modern history.
What makes you think the West don't have responsibility?
Did you get chance to look at the Moderate Islam I pointed you towards yet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Jon, posted 09-19-2014 4:38 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Jon, posted 09-19-2014 6:05 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 114 of 432 (737225)
09-19-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Jon
09-19-2014 6:05 PM


Re: The Middle East
Don't be ridiculous, the Islamic world has been at war with itself since the death of their prophet.
So which of those ancient conflicts do you think is most responsible for the modern day instability of the region?
I'm still looking for the common thread.
Is there a common thread?
Whose work have you studied so far?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Jon, posted 09-19-2014 6:05 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Jon, posted 09-19-2014 10:33 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 117 of 432 (737236)
09-19-2014 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Jon
09-19-2014 10:33 PM


Re: The Middle East
I don't think 'studied' is the right word. But I browsed through a few and have come up without much.
If you see a common thread, it might be better to just point it out instead of presenting me with long lists of names to spend countless hours reviewing in search for some commonality.
Ah! You want me to do a thematic analysis of the collected works of Reform Islam and present the common themes that run throughout? No. No thanks. You want to find moderate Islam, by which you mean Progressive Islam? There it is. Enjoy learning about it. Let me know what you think. I don't see any rhetorical requirement that I find 'common threads', as I am here only to assert existence.
Now, in the meantime, rather than trying to do a wide study of a large body of work to find the commonalities, which is obviously a burdensome demand in this context, let's discuss just one of them.
Nasr Abu Zayd:
quote:
From the beginning of his academic career, he developed a renewed hermeneutic view of the Qur'an and further Islamic holy texts, arguing that they should be interpreted in the historical and cultural context of their time. The mistake of many Muslim scholars was to see the Qur'an only as a text, which led conservatives as well as liberals to a battle of quotations, each group seeing clear verses (when on their side) and ambiguous ones (when in contradiction with their vision). But this type of controversy led both conservatives and liberals to produce authoritative hermeneutics.
This vision of the Qur'an as a text was the vision of the elites of Muslim societies, whereas, at the same time, the Qur'an as an oral discourse played the most important part in the understanding of the masses. Nasr Abu Zayd called for another reading of the holy book through a humanistic hermeneutics, an interpretation which sees the Qur'an as a living phenomenon, a discourse. Hence, the Qur'an can be "the outcome of dialogue, debate, despite argument, acceptance and rejection". This liberal interpretation of Islam should open space for new perspectives on the religion and should account for social change in Muslim societies.
That is why Abu Zayd's analysis can find in the Qur'an several insistent calls for social justice. For instance, when Muhammad was busy preaching to the rich people of Quraysh, and did not pay attention to a poor blind fellow named Ibn Umm Maktūm who came asking the Prophet for advice, the Qur'an strongly blames Muhammad's attitude (chapter 80:1—10).
As well, he found a tendency to improve women's rights, arguing that the Qur'anic discourse was built in a patriarchal society, and therefore the addressees were naturally males, who received permission to marry, divorce, and marry off their female relatives, hence, it is possible to imagine that Muslim women receive the same rights. The classical position of the modern ‘ulamā’ about that issue is understandable as "they still believe in superiority of the male in the family".
Here is something he wrote:
quote:
Now, the urgent question is how we can spread this knowledge to the wider public. This problem is the same for Muslims living in Muslim countries as for Muslims living in the West. We must consider how we should transmit this information to children and adults. The majority of Muslims are not aware of the historical background and the temptation is to quote texts and explain them literally, thus, understand them out of their historical context and interpret them as being universal rulings of God for believers in every time. That is a simplistic way of reading the Qur’an, but not a historically correct one. It comes from ignoring the fact that the Qur’an is a message and a revelation.
An English language interview:
Does that sound like the makings of a moderate Islam?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Jon, posted 09-19-2014 10:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 12:39 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 119 of 432 (737248)
09-20-2014 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Jon
09-20-2014 12:39 PM


liberal Islam
There are reformers; I won't deny that. But that has never been the issue of this thread. The issue has been whether there is a moderate Islam.
And I've shown you moderate (and even more liberal) Islam. All it takes now is for you to acknowledge its existence rather continuously finding ways to move the goalposts around.
It seems like your source finds the same problems with Islam as I've mentioned
Yes, reasonable and educated people had noticed this before you pointed it out, funnily enough. But this is not a thread about the problems of Islam, it is a thread about the existence of liberal Islam.
People arguing for a moderate Islam, such as Nasr Abu Zayd, seem to be working on their own; they are reformers not backed by a coherent moderate Islam or moderate Muslim community.
So at first, I gave you too many names now we're quibbling by how many backers they have. Why don't you do some research and give me some numbers about how many people support Al-Qemany or Abu Zayd? Why do you keep asking me to do more and more work? Why haven't you done any for yourself? Do you care about finding what you are looking for - or did you just want to gloat about how civilized you are compared with the ignorant primitive extremist Muslims? Are you still going to deny liberal Islam exists? That things like this are actually happening and they can only even be attempted if there is a community that agrees. That books on liberal Islam are selling, and it isn't just the critics making the purchases?
If your OP was 'liberal Islam seems to be in the minority', I wouldn't be arguing with you. But moderate Islam - Islam that does not believe in flying planes into buildings or murdering people on the streets, that's everywhere. Yes, they have different moral standards than you do (community standards being more important than individual liberties, punishments may vary, the normal right-wing conservative obsession with 'clean-living' and modesty, different ideas of social roles and how to bank etc., etc.). Liberal Islam takes courage to promote, as liberal Christianity used to.
Similarly, the existence of reformers shows the need for reform
It's an Abrahamic religion. It'll need reforming until it doesn't exist. There are reformers in Christianity trying to get homosexuality more accepted, for instance. When you are looking for moderate Islam, you are going to find reformers. What the hell else were you expecting? That's what a moderate version of a religion requires.
This means that today, as the matter stands, reformers such as Nasr Abu Zayd have not been successful in creating a moderate Islam
So what is the Islam that they have created to be called? What should we call the people that follow this religion?
so it is not unreasonable to say that, for now, moderate Islam does not exist
Yes it does - it's right THERE!
I'm sorry that in order for a religion to exist it needs to be publicly spoken about by a certain number of people in English before you'll acknowledge it. Trust me, there are plenty of Muslims that feel this way about their religion. Rather than denying their existence, how about you amplify their voices so we're not just hearing about the extremists?
It is, instead, in the process of coming into existence
It exists right now. I've lead you to the water. I've dipped your nose to the water. I've pulled your tongue into the water. The rest is up to you.
whether its emergence is successful or notwhether it will emerge as the dominant form of Islamonly history and many, many lost lives, will tell.
Which is what the rest of the educated world has been saying for a long time. I'm glad you finally caught up with this - but you aren't going to help it emerge by denying its existence and reinforcing that Islam is all about the 8th Century morality and social views.
For someone who didn't seem to know about the existence of the Five Pillars, the Six Articles, the Hadith of Gabriel - it seems a little rich for you to pontificate on this subject don't you think? Perhaps its time for me to give up and just let you believe that you have something new and true to say on the subject despite literally not knowing the first thing about it a few weeks ago . Deny the existence of something that exists if you like, it just kind of makes you look like a dick.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 12:39 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 3:52 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 122 of 432 (737260)
09-20-2014 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Jon
09-20-2014 3:52 PM


Re: liberal Islam
You still seem incapable of grasping the difference between moderate Muslims and moderate Islam.
No, you seem incapable of understanding the relationship between moderate Muslims and moderate Islam, and you have neglected to comment on it when I've described it.
I suppose it's easy to view the oppression of women as a 'conservative obsession with "clean-living" and modesty' when you are not a woman who is being oppressed by those obsessions.
You are a complete moron. The people I am referring to do not oppress women. Try again, with less stupid this time.
Oh come on, Mod! The concern for individual liberties is the definition of liberalism.
Yes, that would be something liberal Islam, therefore, concerns itself with.
Moderate Islam is more conservative/traditionalist than liberal Islam though it is obviously a lot more liberal than extreme Islamism.
You realize this paragraphs was about the distinction between the two, which has caused not a little confusion in this thread already?
The goal of maintaining 'community standards' is the same nonsense behind all the conservative attempts to restrict free expression, sexual freedoms, etc.
Yes, that's because they are a predominantly conservative group.
This thread isn't about other religions.
I was using a cultural example that we're both familiar with. Showing that reform is a long and painful process that our own culture has not yet completed.
Rather than denying their existence, how about you amplify their voices so we're not just hearing about the extremists?
Because I am not a Muslim. It's not my religion to fight for.
This statement of yours should be directed at Muslimsmoderate ones.
If you aren't part of the solution, then why don't you try shutting the fuck up, instead?
Do you honestly think that I have any obligation to defend someone else's religion
I'm not asking you to defend anything. If you want extremism to flourish and liberalism to be crushed then that's your concern. Personally, that world doesn't look good to me.
You shouldn't be surprised that I am scrutinizing your points, because that is how a debate is conducted.
I am more surprised that you claim to be looking for moderate Islam but you clearly aren't.
I'm here to find moderate Islam, not to fight for it.
I've shown it to you. You barely looked before the denial started being uttered.
Implying that I am uneducated because I refuse to simply accept your arguments outright is to take a pretty low road.
Yes it is.
Fortunately if you actually read what I wrote, I was implying that you were educated. So suck it.
Also - the implication came because you accepted the same argument as I do, not because you didn't accept it. So suck it twice.
More on the low road, I see.
When you are ready to discuss the matter in good faith, maybe you'll find me a more pleasant discussion partner. But when I'm pointing you at what you are looking for and you won't acknowledge it is right there in front of you and instead keep pointing elsewhere and saying 'it's not there', it's a little irritating.
I guess I will have to be content with being seen as an ignorant American Islamophobe. Your spottings of moderate Muslims are simply not going to convince me of the existence of a moderate Islam.
So people following Moderate/Liberal Islam, people writing about moderate/liberal Islam, people speaking from the position of moderate Islam, all apparently can't convince you of its existence. Even though that is what a moderate religion IS.
You just want me to write a essay that summarizes the work of Islamic scholars which is mostly in a foreign language (or relies on foreign language sources) into a post that you can be bothered to read that contains all the things you are looking for but not specifying for some reason which is obviously overly burdensome.
What are you looking for, exactly???.
The truth is that I really hope that a moderate Islam can emerge swiftly in the Islamic world and put the fundamentalist Muslims out of business. That peace can prevail over violence.
Great, get working on helping out. Get politicians into office that'll pull the military out of the region so they can sort this out for themselves. Promote and fund liberals with books and cameras and TV slots, not opposing groups of Islamists with guns and bombs. Talk to Muslims, try planting some seeds of liberalism in terms they understand from al-Qemany or whatever. You're just some random dude, I know, but the more people we can get on board with this the better, methinks.
But if that cannot happen then I will settle for just getting rid of Islam all together.
You're options are:
1) Several large scale genocides, and countless local pogroms/lynchings
2) Liberalise, dilute, and vanish.
2) Will be a lot of hard work and I doubt I'll live to see its fruition even if it is to succeed. 1) is obscene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 3:52 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 6:18 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 124 of 432 (737264)
09-20-2014 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Jon
09-20-2014 4:40 PM


Re: Islam: Q&A
A board on Islam: Islam Question and Answer.
This is worth checking out.
Once again revealing your true motivations are to highlight the extremes of Islam*, not discover the moderate or liberal ones. It's quite easy to find the moderate views on this. Since it's short, I'll compile it into a single narrative for you:
Death to apostates comes from a single quote in an al-Bukhaari Hadith. We dispute the authenticity of this quote as it is uncharacteristically vague/general/terse for Muhammed given the importance of what he is saying {or some other reason for disputing it}. Even if genuine the statement is not backed up by the Qur'an, which being complete, would have mentioned such an important fact. Muhammed was a man talking to people at the time. In his time the Muslims were at war. There was worry the spies might convert to get information and leave as convenient, or that apostates might share military intelligence or other sensitive details for profit (no pun intended). So Muhammed thought apostasy should be treated like treason, which was culturally considered to be 'death'. This is why Muhammed told people not to write his words down, to avoid temporal statements being confused with more universal ones.

*Muhammad Al-Munajjid is a Salifist that you may know as Wahhabist, there may be some moderate thinkers in there, but there are the most extreme extremists in there too. This particular guy issued the death sentence on Mickey Mouse for enlisting in Satan's Army and issued a fatwa to allow hacking 'jewish websites'. He's a raving nutter, basically.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 4:40 PM Jon has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 125 of 432 (737266)
09-20-2014 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jon
09-20-2014 6:18 PM


Re: liberal Islam
But they're not following moderate Islam; they're trying to create it!
They are following moderate Islam and they are writing about it.
Or do you think these people don't believe the interpretations they claim to be using and are still secretly believing in stoning adulterers, flying planes into buildings, beheading infidels until such time as their work reaches some arbitrary point which Jon will call 'complete' and then they'll start practicing moderate Islam?
Like I already said, making cookies is not the same as having cookies, and neither are the same as eating cookies.
I don't believe that the efforts of moderate Muslims have fully developed into the existence of a moderate Islam. It is still a work very much in progress.
Taking the stance you take, where you pretend that it is already done, doesn't help the cause of moderate Muslims at all.
There are cookies ready. The cooks are working on the next batch, we hope there'll be some improvements.
We should recognize the importance of what these people are doing by realizing that their goals cannot be met within a culture that considers them already achieved.
The goal now is to spread the cookies around.
The fight between moderate Muslims and extremist Muslims isn't our fight. We need to stop throwing away the lives of our own people attempting to police someone else's religion.
Yes, my view exactly.
I'm talking about the opposite of fighting. That's why I said 'no guns/bombs' and 'books' instead.
Debates like we are having now is all the more involved we really need to be. Humanitarian efforts should be humanitarian efforts only; it is no government's job to further the cause of any religion or religious belief.
But that's exactly how we're going to further the cause of moderate religious belief, by stopping the constant interference, just trying to make sure people are giving informed consent for their rule by sharing information.
And as a non-religious person I have no interest in furthering certain beliefs for the sake of furthering those beliefs. The only reason I see to further moderate Islam over extremist Islam is because it might mean a lot fewer people getting blown up.
Correct. I'm all for getting fewer people blown up, how about you?
My concerns are purely practical and secular, as I'm sure most people's on this forum are.
Mine too. There are practicing Muslims with liberal interpretations. They exist and so do their interpretations. This is moderate Islam. It might not meet your peculiar standards, but it's there. Spread it around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 6:18 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 10:57 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 127 of 432 (737272)
09-21-2014 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon
09-20-2014 10:57 PM


Re: liberal Islam
I accept their claims on what they believe. I take them at their word; what they say they believe is what they believe. I'd certainly have no grounds for thinking otherwise.
That thing that they believe that you believe they believe? That's moderate Islam. Who'd have thought to look at the beliefs of moderate Muslims to find moderate Islam, eh?
But something we might ask ourselves, and this goes to the point I've been making, is whether these folk are carrying on the traditions of reformers before them or whether they are coming to their conclusions separately and anew.
I'm not sure what point this is related to, but OK. Re-examining the interpretations of Islam is something that has been going on since its inception. Sometimes it moves towards the liberal, sometimes in the more conservative direction. Many of the principles used find roots in things like Sufism and Mu'tazilism. The ideas start to look like more modern moderate Islamic ideas around the 19th Century with the likes of Rashid Rida and Muhammad Abduh.
My analogy regarded a single batch of cookies as the completed product.
There is no "completed product." when reforming a religion any more than there is a "completed product" on a given language. There is an entire religion you can believe in that is both liberal and Islamic. Still more conservative than you are, but probably on par with Christian conservatives. In that sense it is a completed product. But there'll be another product up soon that extends it or criticises it. Because: religion.
Your so-called 'moderate Islam' doesn't lend itself to spreading very easily because it is not complete.
No it's complete. You are confusing my incomplete knowledge of Islamic thought with the incompleteness of a religious view. The former should be apparent, the latter not. You can't read a few summaries and conclude it isn't a complete religion and I know you haven't read the books they wrote. So what on earth makes you think you have enough information in order to make this judgement?
It's not perfect, but it's just as complete as Mormonism is, if not more so. It does lend itself to spreading, but only among the educated, and not perfectly there. It's hard to spread 'western values' in the current climate, but that's kind of a bit our fault.
It's hard to spread the word when folks are having difficulty agreeing on what the word should be.
That's how Islam has always been built. Without a Pope or an Archbishop or a King or what have you, it's all about who can get what taught where and to whom. It's a culture war, and the ultra-conservatives are currently in power all over the place and control the education. That's why there is difficulty.
It's easy to teach kids moderate forms of religion. It's difficult to persuade adults to change their mind. The conservatives have the children.
If you want to simply define 'moderate Islam' as what is practiced by moderate Muslims, then, sure, that moderate Islam exists.
I'm pretty sure that's the only way a religion can exist.
But what good is that moderate Islam? It can't be spread by any reasonable means throughout the Islamic world;
So what are you looking for, an airborne variety? You realize that religion operates as a social thing, right? That it spreads and changes as believers contest and dispute meanings with one another, constructing new meanings and new interpretations of religious traditions. It's in the shisha bars, the markets, and spreading quite nicely on social media. How else is moderate Islam going to spread if people aren't believing it?
It is in its early stages; it is still the lofty ideas of a handful of moderate Muslims; and there is still plenty of disagreement about what moderate Islam should be.
These 'handful' of moderates with 'lofty' ideas have many followers and supporters, which is how they are able to speak and gain positions of influence. Remember Mohamed ElBaradei? The Wafd Party? Free Egyptians Party? El-Ghad Party? Democratic Front Party? The New Wafd Party? Egyptian Social Democratic Party? The people that supported and voted for them?
It's an Abrahamic religion, the other two major ones and all the minor ones are disagreeing about the correct way to be a modern moderate and I don't see why we should feel different about Islam.
Perhaps it was my fault for working with the assumption that a moderate Islam should have some practical value and not only exist by definition alone.
Well the practical value is that they are numerous and organizing and making changes as they can. Say hello to Egypt.. Say hello to Iran. It's out there, it has value, it is not just in definition only. It has a modern tradition extending back to Darwin's day, and this itself was based on earlier ideas. There are enough liberals to create political parties that have some measure of influence in some Islamic countries. Some people predict a possible Velvet Revolution in Iran.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 09-20-2014 10:57 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Jon, posted 09-21-2014 9:15 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 129 of 432 (737275)
09-21-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Jon
09-21-2014 9:15 AM


Re: liberal Islam
I still believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; that a religion is not simply a bunch of people with similar beliefs.
This doesn't seem to run counter to my belief. My point is that its the beliefs themselves that constitutes a religion. So when we see people holding moderate Islamic beliefs, we've got ourselves a moderate Islam.
And let's be clear: The religion is Islam. It's been complete for over a thousand years. Liberal Islam is just a way of approaching Islam, interpreting it differently. You realize its the same religion, though, right?
It is popular for the west to blame itself; but that cannot happen, because it leads to people who ignore actual motives for bad behavior.
So you think that we should ignore our contributions to the problem and we should just blame the Muhammadans for their barbaric religion, while we try and eradicate their primitive religion? Is this the 11th Century or something?
Despite what some would like us to think, not everything that is happening in the Middle East is the result of economic or political difficulties (that is more western thinking); many of the people who are firing bombs and kidnapping children are doing so specifically and only on the basis of a religion they believe tells them they should.
Feel better now?
So anyway, as I was saying, the Middle Eastern countries are suspicious of the west's influence because of the negative impact it has had in the region and so trying to spread values which feel 'western' (ie., liberal and secular) is met with hostility, which contributes to the difficulty of getting these ideas spread around. This theory is presented in contrast to your 'moderate Islam is not complete' theory.
Obviously because people are getting killed in the name of Islam.
I don't follow your argument. You said it can't be spread around easily because there isn't universal agreement. But a lack of universal agreement has never on its own hindered the spread of a religion with any other religion, so why do you think Islam, a religion without a centralised and universal understanding, should be different?
'Because people are getting killed' is a reason we want liberalism to spread, not the reason why we should expect Islam to operate differently in contrast to the empirical evidence that this is exactly how Islamic ideas spread through the Islamic community: Different voices giving slightly different takes leading to a similar conclusion.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Jon, posted 09-21-2014 9:15 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 12:20 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 136 of 432 (737313)
09-22-2014 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Jon
09-22-2014 12:20 AM


politics
Not at all. But I can see how you might think that since you broke my paragraph apart and took pieces of it out of their context.
The other parts of the paragraph are just reinforcing the notion that you think it is Islam alone that is the problem. Or are you not saying this?
My point: It is very 'western' to see the world in terms of economics and politicsthese are pretty much the driving forces behind individual decision making in the west; it's part of our culture. This is not part of everyone else's culture though.
If you are trying to sound uninformed then you are doing a decent job.
Please, Oh Wise One, explain to me how politics is irrelevant to Arab culture. Show me your wisdom and your sources on how Political Islam is ambivalent on the topic of politics and economics. I wonder what OBL was saying in the 1990s?
Hm, seems to be talking politics, about America's and Israel's policies and classifications and their targeting of Muslims. What about later though?
Anyone else?
quote:
Britain, which helped to topple the Ottoman State, handed Palestine to the Jews and participated in the killings of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq and whose crimes continue to be seen in every corner of the Islamic world.
Salafist jihadism not interested in politics?? Islamism, disinterested in politics? LOL!! Their motivation is political, their rationalization for their tactics is religious.
Where does that leave us? Whole cultures deciding to live in Backwardsville where governments are theocracies and human rights don't matter just to avoid accepting ideas they perceive as coming from the 'enemy'? Are they that stupid?
Cultures don't make decisions, and people don't have access to the same information and experiences you do so you can't expect them to conclude the same things.
I don't think so; instead I think the problem is that the area is so entrenched in its religious delusions that absolutely nothing else in the world matters beyond maintaining those delusions. 'Western' ideas are bad not because they are 'western' but specifically because they threaten to shatter the delusion.
That's part of it, yes. Their religion is a big part of their culture, and they don't want to westernize their religion because they don't see the west as being something to aspire to, but instead as something to fear.
But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that?
I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say?
You asked me why I felt different about Islam, not whether I expected it to behave differently.
I did not ask you a general question about Islam, but a question in a specific context.
{Explaining why moderate Islam has difficulty spreading around}It is in its early stages; it is still the lofty ideas of a handful of moderate Muslims; and there is still plenty of disagreement about what moderate Islam should be.
It's an Abrahamic religion, the other two major ones and all the minor ones are disagreeing about the correct way to be a modern moderate and I don't see why we should feel different about Islam.
You seem to have misunderstood this. We're talking about how moderate Islam might not spread well, and you think one of the reasons there is difficulty is that there is 'plenty of disagreement'. My counter to this is that this is true of other comparable moderate religions and that didn't seem to be a huge problem and if it was, it worked out in the end. So, unless you have some particular reason to think Islam is exceptional in this regard, I expect the fact that religious people disagree about their made up stories is not a big barrier to the moderates getting their message accepted. If it does inhibit it, there's nothing we can do about it because that's what religion does, and we should be looking to other reasons we might be able to influence.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 12:20 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 12:38 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 140 of 432 (737327)
09-22-2014 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jon
09-22-2014 12:38 PM


Re: politics
My point is that we should not discount the influence of religionwhich is unarguably greatby trying to understand the motives in purely western terms of economics and politics.
We don't. But this is irrelevant to the point being discussed and it looks like you are just trying to complain about Islam again.
We were talking about the spread of moderate Islam. Your argument was that it can't spread because it is not complete. I dispute this. The 'influence of religion' on the area is not really relevant here because we're talking about religion. I was pointing out that liberal Islam is seen by many as a western corruption of Islam and they see the west as a bad thing and this is partly our fault.
I just quoted you citing some statistics in another thread. To take one as an example, about 80% of people in Egypt think adulterers should be stoned. It is hard to imagine that these people are incapable of conceptualizing a non-stoning; I mean, this is what happens every time they don't stone someone. So clearly they have access to the notion that people don't have to be stoned.
They choose to ignore it for some reason or another (probably largely religion-based) and instead vote to stone folks.
Yes, I was proposing that the cultures and experiences are different in that they don't understand the concept of not throwing stones. That's totally my argument. You completely destroyed that argument. Whatever am I to do?
But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that?
I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say?
I say that it is evil to sit by and watch people be oppressed.
Doing the right thing is the right thing to do even if the people you do it for hate you for doing it.
That's nice, but again I wasn't just asking you a general question about what you think. I was asking what you thought the reasons for the spread of Salaifist jihadism were. It's like asking about the spread of rampant anti-Semitism in Germany. There might be actual reasons we can point to. What do you think they are?
I don't know why you keep {breaking} my paragraph apart and {taking} pieces of it out of their context, but could you stop?
The problem with disagreement goes deeper than just people who can't see eye-to-eye. One of the problems with the ideals held by the moderate Muslims is that they largely arrive at those ideals after long and laborious critical analysis.
It makes the whole thing too inaccessible.
Yes, I think they call that process of laborious critical analysis, 'education'. If you start it when they're young it becomes considerably easier.
. In contrast (though I don't like comparing religions) moderate Christianity is very accessible; there are slogans and buzzwords that anyone can understand quickly and without thought"love the sinner, hate the sin", "turn the other cheek", etc. This is spreadable. "Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not.
I look forward to you showing me how this is absent from moderate Islam.
Let's see
"Islam is a religion of peace."
"As you would have people do to you, do to them and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them."
"There is no compulsion in religion"
Three that I can think of right from the top of my head with no research required.
"Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not.
And yet this is exactly what the Christians did to moderate their religion. They're still doing it. Most Christians don't read all that stuff, they were just told it by their pastors and parents etc. There has to be a theology (drawn out argument), but that's for the educated folks. I can't give you what the less educated liberal Muslims are saying because I imagine most of them can't speak English.
If there is a moderate Islam, then it needs to organize itself into something meaningful that can actually compete with extreme Islam. Otherwise the whole thing is pretty much a matter of tossing about definitions and has no practical value.
That is already happening, but until we know what is causing the rise of jihadist Salifism we're not going to see as much progress as we'd like. Turkey seems to be doing pretty well, there is good organisation in Egypt and hope for it in Iran.
If you have an informed critique about the level or organisation of liberal and moderate Islam, though, I'm willing to hear it.
I mean seriously, how are you reaching the conclusion that liberal and moderate Islam is not meaningful?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 12:38 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 9:04 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 141 of 432 (737328)
09-22-2014 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Coyote
09-22-2014 1:15 PM


Re: Bah!
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy.
Off topic and illogical. You're doing a stellar job Coyote.
Indonesia has been Muslim majority for centuries so cannot possibly support the off-topic conclusion you are reaching for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Coyote, posted 09-22-2014 1:15 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Coyote, posted 09-22-2014 3:31 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 143 of 432 (737343)
09-22-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Coyote
09-22-2014 3:31 PM


Re: Bah!
no logic required
I believe you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Coyote, posted 09-22-2014 3:31 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 145 of 432 (737371)
09-22-2014 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jon
09-22-2014 9:04 PM


Re: politics
As far as the west having a hand in turning ordinary folks from good ideas, I'm not sure it matters. By refusing to accept a moderate form of Islam, the only damage they do is to themselves. Assigning blame makes for good footnotes, but it ultimately doesn't get much done.
It's not about blame, its about cause and effect. If something we've been doing is making the situation worse, it would be wise if we considered that in our plans.
At most it means that moderate Muslims need to work harder to spread their message and emphasize that the values they preach regarding human rights are universal and not just 'western'.
Let's not blame the victims though, eh? In the current climate working any harder could get their heads cut off.
Whatever damage is done is done; whoever did it did it; we can only focus on the future.
It's difficult to pacify an angry community if you don't know why they're angry. So knowing what we've done in the past, should help inform how we act in the future.
I say they are largely religious.
You think jihadist Salifism is spreading so much because they are largely religious? I'm not sure that makes any sense.
say this because I want to give the people living there the benefit of the doubt: It is more reasonable to see people destroying their own societies in the name of religion than in the name of sticking it to their enemy.
Or they don't see themselves destroying their own societies.
Perhaps the impetus was to avoid being 'western', but there are plenty of ways to do that. Digging up the darkest aspects of their religion and enacting a hell on earth for millions of people was the choice they made. They decided on being down-right self destructive and that, I think, is the result of their religious belief.
But the question is - why that religious belief, why that darkest aspect of their religion? I'm not proposing it is to avoid being 'western'. That's my proposal for the suspicion of and reluctance to adopt, liberal and secular Islam.
I expect that, in part, they have chosen to adopt a religious perspective that justifies total war because they feel they are at war. They feel that because of the historical and present day facts on the ground previously described earlier. They are angry and scared and so they turn to a hard line nationalistic/Islamist 'We're soldiers together' type religion. I'd say it is not entirely dissimilar to the wave of nationalistic fascism that exploded as traditional empires started to crumble and collide at the start of the 20th century in Europe as the Germans felt like Europe had humiliated them and they united as Ein Volk and took it out on the weak and unpopular.
There was a terrible crime committed in my community recently. Arson at a dog's home, lots of dogs died. Community in outcry. There are thousands of people around me talking about how we should get the bastard that did and burn him. And they're being serious, even if they wouldn't do it themselves. His photo has been leaked to social media as has his full name. But he hasn't been charged with a crime. I'm following the people that are sharing this photo and they're literally performing a witch hunt, with the same traditional conclusion. I believe there was a young black man that was shot, caused sections of the community to act aggressively? I can see why the Ummah is turning the way it is, given the way these things are talked about.
Which, in fact, means that you cannot even discern whether they are liberal or not.
So now I'm expected to identify individual everyday liberal Muslims for you now? What kind of madness is this comment?
I've already given you evidence these people exist. Do I need to repeat myself?
Because I'm not a Muslim and I don't see it accomplishing anything for people who are.
Why would we expect you to, not being a Muslim, and all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 9:04 PM Jon has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 149 of 432 (737479)
09-25-2014 5:16 PM


The Amman Message and a recent Fatwa
quote:
Islam also affirms that the way of calling [others] to God is founded upon kindness and gentleness: Call to the path of your Lord with wisdom and a beautiful exhortation, and debate with them in that which is most beautiful (ahsan). (16:125) Furthermore, it shuns cruelty and violence in how one faces and addresses others:
It is by some Mercy of God that you were gentle to them. Were you severecruel-heartedthey would have broken away from you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them in the conduct of affairs. And when you are resolved, put your trust in God; truly God loves those who trust in Him. (3:i59)
Islam has made clear that the goal of its message is realizing mercy and good for all people.
...
Islam calls for treating others as one desires to be treated. It urges the tolerance and forgiveness that express the nobility of the human being: The recompense for an evil is an evil equal thereto, but who forgives and reconciles, his recompense is from God. (42:40) Good and evil are not equal. Repel with what is most virtuous. Then he between whom and you there is enmity will be as if he were an intimate friend. (41:34)
....
Islam recognizes the noble station of human life, so there is to be no fighting against non-combatants, and no assault upon civilians and their properties, children at their mothers' bosom, students in their schools, nor upon elderly men and women. Assault upon the life of a human being, be it murder, injury or threat, is an assault upon the right to life among all human beings. It is among the gravest of sins; for human life is the basis for the prosperity of humanity: Whoever kills a soul for other than slaying a soul or corruption upon the earth it is as if he has killed the whole of humanity, and whoever saves a life, it is as if has revived the whole of humanity. (5:32)
...
No day has passed but that this religion has been at war against extremism, radicalism and fanaticism, for they veil the intellect from foreseeing negative consequences of one's actions. Such blind impetuousness falls outside the human regulations pertaining to religion, reason and character. They are not from the true character of the tolerant, accepting Muslim.
Islam rejects extremism, radicalism and fanaticismjust as all noble, heavenly religions reject themconsidering them as recalcitrant ways and forms of injustice. Furthermore, it is not a trait that characterizes a particular nation; it is an aberration that has been experienced by all nations, races, and religions. They are not particular to one people; truly they are a phenomenon that every people, every race and every religion has known.
We denounce and condemn extremism, radicalism and fanaticism today, just as our forefathers tirelessly denounced and opposed them throughout Islamic history. They are the ones who affirmed, as do we, the firm and unshakeable understanding that Islam is a religion of noble character traits in both its ends and means; a religion that strives for the good of the people, their happiness in this life and the next; and a religion that can only be defended in ways that are ethical; and the ends do not justify the means in this religion.
The source of relations between Muslims and others is peace; for there is no fighting permitted when there is no aggression. Even then, it must be done with benevolence,
....
...we decry the campaign of brazen distortion that portrays Islam as a religion that encourages violence and institutionalizes terrorism. We call upon the international community to work earnestly to implement inter-national laws and honor the international mandates and resolutions issued by the United Nations, ensuring that all parties accept them and that they be enacted without double standards, to guarantee the return of rights to their rightful holders and the end of oppression. Achieving this will be a significant contribution to uprooting the causes of violence, fanaticism and extremism.
....
The primary components of these policies comprise developing methods for preparing preachers, with the goal of ensuring that they realize the spirit of Islam and its methodology for structuring human life, as well as providing them with knowledge of contemporary culture, so that they are able to interact with their communities on the basis of awareness and insight: Say, 'This is my way. I, and those who follow me, call for God with insight.' (12:108); taking advantage of the communication revolution to refute the doubts that the enemies of Islam are arousing, in a sound, intellectual manner, without weakness or agitation, and with a style that attracts the reader, the listener and the viewer; consolidating the educational structure for individual Muslims, who are confident in their knowledge and abilities,
Amman Message – The Official Site
quote:
This is Not the Path to Paradise
Response to ISIS
When he is empowered, he sets out to do violence in the land, destroying crops and livestock. But God does not love violence (Qur’an, 2:205).
Beware (or Woe unto you)! Listen! Do not revert back to disbelief after I have gone that is by some of you killing others. - A statement from the Prophet, God’s peace and blessings upon him, from his last sermon given on the Farewell Pilgrimage
Whoever pledges allegiance to someone not appointed by the consultative process of the believers, neither he nor the one to whom he pledged allegiance are to be followed, out of fear of foolishly exposing themselves to being killed with them. - Umar ibn al-Khattab
Do not shed your own blood nor the blood of other Muslims along with you. Consider the eventual effects of your actions. - Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal
Some of the recommendations that came out of the Forum for Promoting Peace included the urgent and dire need to reorder the house of the Muslims and to restore its constituents on the individual, societal, and institutional levels. It also reinforced the pressing need to strengthen the immune system of the Muslim world against the extremism and violence that exists within it, regardless of where the violence is directed or how it began. The time is now for Muslim societiesindividuals and political entities to work together towards what is right and good and to place the higher interests of humanity and the world above personal interests. They must adopt dialogue and cooperation as the sole strategy to address their concerns.
...
In recent weeks and months, the incidences of violence have only accelerated and become more indiscriminate and destructive in nature, leaving no segment of society or religious community unaffected. These trends were predicted and forewarned about at the Forum, and we must quickly work to implement the suggestions and recommendations found in the papers and presentations of the participants.
Thus, for all who are troubled about the state of the Muslim world and long for its reformation, the Forum for Promoting Peace would like to remind you of and alert you to the following:
1. The responsibility of the scholars and religious authorities at this time in particular is to protect life. No sane person can remain indifferent to the loss of life and suffering in the Muslim world. What then of those who have pledged to God that they will do their part to set the world right? The reality is that much of what is happening today relies on religious justification as a pretext. The perpetrators use excommunication, allegations of treason, or claim to implement Islamic law in wartime. It appears as though these people have not heard of the tradition of Bishr bin Artah and other well-known traditions on this subject. They also accuse monotheists of polytheism, and they claim they are responding to injustices. Although the allegation of injustices is true, nevertheless their response is wrong, as it is being used for falsehoodfor dressing up error in the clothing of truth. Because some of these leaders claim to be religious figures, they are causing even greater confusion. At the same time, the media spares no effort to further muddy the waters, and so people’s judgment is skewed, and they falter. For these reasons, there is no excuse for the scholars and leaders to not fulfill their obligation to clarify matters and advise the Muslim world in order to extinguish the fires of conflict and to stop the bloodshed by uniting in truth and cooperating in what is right and good: Help one another to do what is right and good; do not help one another towards sin and hostility. Be mindful of God, for His punishment is severe (Qur’an, 5:2).
...
That is why all believers are ordered to enter into peace: O you who believe, enter wholeheartedly into peace, and do not follow in Satan’s footsteps, for he is your sworn enemy (Qur’an, 2:208).
Believers are also ordered to accept any attempts at peace: But if they incline towards peace, you [Prophet] must also incline towards it, and put your trust in God (Qur’an, 8:61). It is also very well known that the Prophet, God’s peace and blessings upon him, compromised greatly at the Armistice of Hudaybiyyah for the sake of making peace.
....
6. All forms of oppression and aggression against religious minorities are in direct contradiction to the values of our religion. In fact, Islam calls us to do well by religious minorities, to place them under our protection, and threatens those who harm them with punishment in the afterlife. This is evidenced by the track record of the Muslim world, which has no peer in history when it pertains to people living harmoniously with religious minorities, beyond what basic humanity demands of equal rights and responsibilities. Hence, any aggression of any kind or coercion to convert is unacceptable. Coerced conversion is invalid in Islamic law. Islam has nothing to do with this, as the Qur’an states, There is no compulsion in religion (Qur’an, 2:256).
This is Not the Path to Paradise
Not strictly liberal, but certainly moderate.

  
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