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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Here's your marked picture:
You say: This shows a stratum of coarse grained gravel deposited as a 'foreset bed' at a non-horizontal angle. This is a schematic showing how they form.
Nothing of the sort is in that picture. So I added my own marks to it, indicating how I see the direction of the gravel:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Reading back through recent posts I see everybody's very involved in these dropstones, and thinking something about them is "obscure" to me, etc. I haven't really been paying a lot of attention to it although I discussed how a few should be interpreted. I've been thinking more about edge's gravelly hill and how it has nothing to do with strata and what the definition of strata is and so on. So if I'm missing the point of the dropstone discussion somebody needs to clue me in. Thanks.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm not taking sides in this discussion. When I don't understand something I'll say so, but that doesn't mean I think it's is wrong. So let me ask about what I don't understand concerning your position on horizontality: How horizontal does a surface have to be before it can no longer be considered horizontal and collect sediments? Obviously the answer can't be that a surface must be 100% horizontal before it will collect sediments. If a surface is 99.99% horizontal it will collect sediments just as well as one that is 100% horizontal. Where is the transition from horizontal enough to collect sediments to not horizontal enough? How far off from horizontal can a surface be and still collect sediments? Will a surface that is 99% horizontal still collect sediments? 98% horizontal? 97%? 95%? 90%? 80%? Steno's principle isn't about the surface the sediments deposit ON, it's about the surface FORMED BY the sediments as deposited. On that page I posted he says they were all deposited in fluid state, which IS how they look when you see them in a deep stack such as in the Grand Canyon. Anyway, the principle has to do with the layer itself, its own surface, not what it's deposited on. This is why I keep pointing out that if there is a very irregular surface for it to deposit on, such as that gneiss in the road cut picture way back there, or a nonhorizontal surface like HBD's diagram of a slope accumulating sediment, or the monadnocks or hills in HBD's other diagrams, or the surface of a rock that dropped into a stack of still-soft sediments, any new deposition of loose sediment, either dry or fluid, would not form a coherent layer over or around the irregular surface but would butt up against it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Did you miss that post? No, I think it's an insult to Steno, who was addressing strata, rock already formed. But he was not defining strata. He was addressing the most common way in which strata are deposited. No, he was addressing what strata ARE and have always been known to be until this weird idea came along that loose sediments can also be "strata," and I have no idea when that happened; for all I know this thread is its birthplace. Strata ARE those layers of ROCK one sees in the many pictures posted here, and most dramatically in the Grand Canyon.
I don't recall anyone presenting "loose or unconsolidated gravel" as a stratum..., You missed the photo edge posted of the gravel on a hill? But this entire discussion is about this issue, whether layers could form BY DEPOSITION IN THEIR LOOSE STATE over an irregular surface such as the gneiss in the road cut photo or the monadnocks in HBD's diagrams and just about every other post for days now. How you can say you don't recall this is beyond me. It's just about ALL we've been talking about for pages and pages and pages...
I do, however, recall many examples of solid rock strata that obviously were deposited with big bumps in 'em. We know there are other (atypical) non-horizontal ways in which strata are deposited and do not follow the principle of horizontality and we've produced many examples. ' YOU KNOW NO SUCH THING, and I've been at pains to show this. NO strata DEPOSIT irregularly or nonhorizontally. DEPOSIT!!!!! Get the word "deposit." They get DEFORMED in many ways afterward, as Steno's principles are designed to recognize. I can't believe such a simple principle could become as unnecessarily complicated as it has.
That's probably why no modern definition of stratum requires horizontality. No, it's because Geology has lost its mind, period. Steno had more smarts than anybody here.
Steno was not a prophet producing unchangeable commandments graven in stone. (Fundmentalists see so much as graven in stone). He did produce guidelines which fit most but not all situations. The modern definitions are not any kind of insult or travesty; they are more accurate modifications to Steno's versions. Remember your reference at Principle of original horizontality? There are NO exceptions to the principle of original horizontality in relation to the STRATA. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
LOOSE DEPOSITS WOULD FILL UP A DEPRESSION. How do you people manage to stay upright walking around this planet anyway?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I CAN'T STAND THIS. YOU ARE ALL VIOLATING THE SIMPLEST FACTS OF REALITY AND PRETENDING YOU ARE THE ONES WITH THE EXPERTISE. YOU'VE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith's position seems to be that these hilly structures must have pushed up into the layers above because layers are deposited horizontally - which I take to mean "perfectly horizontal" not even a couple degrees off under any conditions.
She seems to think we are arguing that the principal of horizontality is obsolete, or in her words "compromised", but the only point is that there are circumstances where materials deposit in a non-horizontal way. So, yes it would be good to get this sorted out. Without that understanding what's the point of talking about foreset beds? There is no way to "sort this out." You HAVE all lost your minds, you, edge, JonF, ThinAir, nutty as fruitcakes. Unbelievable. And maybe even Geology itself. OF COURSE sometimes "materials deposit in a non-horizontal way." They stick to slopes and so on and so forth. BUT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FORMATION OF STRATA. THEY DO NOT ACCUMULATE LAYERS THIS WAY. STRATA DO NOT FORM THIS WAY. EVER. And where did this absolute mind-rot come from that the degree of perfection of the horizontality has anything to do with this? If the sediments were originally in a fluid condition as even modern Geology says most were, though I think Steno was right and they all were, then THEY WERE AS ORIGINALLY HORIZONTAL AS IT'S POSSIBLE TO GET whether that means "perfect" or "a few degrees off." You don't even seem to understand how bizarre it is even to think in terms of "a couple of degrees off" in this context. Or anybody else here. When "science" goes wrong boy does it go wrong. Wake up HBD. Stop finding the fault in me. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The idea that my definition of strata is unique to me is already so bonkers I might as well be addressing inmates in a maximum security asylum.
The strata, THE Strata, the one-and-only Strata, that Steno was analyzing and that I always understood to be the One And Only Strata from EVERYTHING I've read in Geology, are the ROCKS we have been talking about forever here, ROCKS, not loose sediments, not gravel, but those parallel LAYERED ROCKS that are seen in most of the pictures we've been discussing here. GOOD GRIEF this discussion ought to get you ALL committed to the boobyhatch. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Take five aspirin and a nice long nap and please avoid posting such silliness again.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I do not know if your definition is complete. I gave you the definition. You really ARE "thin air."
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I refuse to get trapped in your definitional game when I don't know what exceptions I'd want to include and when you are so bonkers you'd even ask such a question in such a tyrannical way as if you knew anything about it when it's clear you are more ignorant about this whole subject than the other bonkers people here.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Then they aren't The Strata.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
duplicate
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Evidently, Faith believes that only solid rock can be strata. This is kind of silly because the solid rocks that we are talking about started out as unconsolidated sediments. So, maybe we should just say, "Okay, the unconsolidated sediments were deposited in a non-horizontal way, so that they appear folded. The 'strata' question would just go away. However, Faith might have to admit that sedimentation occurred on a surface that was had been tilted and eroded first. Oh, well.... I think we are seeing the effects of cognitive dissonance here and it's driving everyone crazy ... except for Faith. Everyone else is crazy. Sigh. The Strata are in fact rock. There are no unconsolidated sediments, gravel or whatnot, now, that are in any sense even LIKE the strata, or could ever become strata. The Strata are rock, that usually cover thousands of square miles and in some cases cover whole continents and even cross the ocean to other continents. I just figured out what's going on. The actual Strata prove the Flood. The actual Strata have come to an end, are no longer being deposited. The OE theory that insists they are points to woefully inadequate examples of sedimentation today because that's all that's going on today. The Strata are ENORMOUS both in height and horizontal extent and were layered miles deep. NOTHING like that is happening now and will never happen again. I guess now you'll point to layering on the continental shelves as was done some time ago, relocating the Geological Timetable with its "progressive" fossilized flora and fauna to the seafloor after their journey of billions of years up the ladder of Time on the continents. Maybe you'll find a fossilized teacup somewhere near the Cliffs of Dover after they've eroded down to nothing? [Yes I know teacups don't fossilize. Sigh.] Absurdities are all you have to make your claim of ongoing deposition on the scale of The Strata. Steno wasn't so hampered. What he said is consistent with the reality of the Flood but you have to pretend a hill of gravel could be the next Era? So now I understand the madness. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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