Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,912 Year: 4,169/9,624 Month: 1,040/974 Week: 367/286 Day: 10/13 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 462 of 1311 (811414)
06-07-2017 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by RAZD
06-07-2017 4:59 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
RAZD writes:
Including the genetic evidence in the non-coding 'junk' sections where their existence and preservation can only be explained by (a) evolution or (b) a jester hoodwinking god.
As you have noted, the species distribution and LTR divergence of endogenous retroviruses is a perfect explanation.
In recent threads we have seen at least 3 common creationist misconceptions of evolution:
1. Species should evolve out of their clade.
2. Observations of natural selection is used as evidence for common ancestry.
3. Similarities alone evidence evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by RAZD, posted 06-07-2017 4:59 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by CRR, posted 06-09-2017 3:41 AM Taq has replied
 Message 464 by CRR, posted 06-09-2017 3:51 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 465 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:11 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 470 of 1311 (811583)
06-09-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by CRR
06-09-2017 3:41 AM


Re: Junk
CRR writes:
Except that since ENCODE it has been clear that there is little junk DNA.
That's false. ENCODE included junk DNA in their definition of "functional". If a stretch of DNA was transcribed into RNA, even at very low levels, they counted it as functional. In the real world, leaky RNA transcriptase activity will transcribe junk DNA, and it is still junk DNA. Their findings did nothing to change the consensus that the vast majority of the human genome has no sequence specific function.
More functions are being discovered in what was formerly called junk, even in pseudogenes.
Finding function in a tiny portion of what was once considered junk DNA does not mean that the rest of the genome has function.
The argument from ERV's only applies if they are part of the junk and they were indeed caused by past viral infections.
False. The ERV argument has nothing to do with function. Even if all of the ERVs had function they would still be evidence for common ancestry between humans and other primates.
ERVs are evidence for common ancestry because they are found at the same position in the genomes of multiple species, not because they lack function. Retroviruses insert randomly into the host genome, so finding the same insertion at the same position in the genome of two species indicates that the insertion occurred once in a common ancestor. As it stands today, there are over 200,000 ERVs in the human genome, and more than 99% are found at the same position in the chimp genome. This is smoking gun evidence for common ancestry.
and the evidence that they came from past infections is only based on similarity.
Scientists have aligned ERVs and reconstituted a consensus sequence of those ERVs. That sequence produced a viable retrovirus.
"Here, we derived in silico the sequence of the putative ancestral progenitor element of one of the most recently amplified familythe HERV-K familyand constructed it. This element, Phoenix, produces viral particles that disclose all of the structural and functional properties of a bona-fide retrovirus, can infect mammalian, including human, cells, and integrate with the exact signature of the presently found endogenous HERV-K progeny. "
Identification of an infectious progenitor for the multiple-copy HERV-K human endogenous retroelements - PMC
Intact ERVs have all of the features of a retroviral genome. We can directly observe retroviruses inserting into host genomes and producing new ERVs. Why shouldn't we conclude that ERVs are the result of past retroviral infections?
Since we don't see ERV's moving toward fixity now viruses must have stopped doing it a long time ago.
We do see ERVs moving towards fixity now. There are several ERV insertional polymorphisms in the human population.
Just a moment...
You need to find a new source of information on ERVs since you appear to be wrong about almost everything about them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by CRR, posted 06-09-2017 3:41 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2017 10:14 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 474 by CRR, posted 06-11-2017 11:12 PM Taq has replied
 Message 719 by CRR, posted 07-11-2017 7:21 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 480 of 1311 (811834)
06-12-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by CRR
06-11-2017 11:12 PM


Re: Junk
CRR writes:
That might have been a valid response several years ago, say when Larry Moran wrote a piece in Sandwalk in ~2003, but not now. In the intervening years, more and more functions have come to light. E.g.
- Penn Medicine News, ‘Mysterious’ Non-protein-coding RNAs Play Important Roles in Gene Expression.
- Repetitive DNA. It must be unimportant, right? Not so, found two researchers from Rockefeller University. Writing in PNAS, they discovered that three proteins carefully protect those repeats around centromeres the locations on chromosomes where the spindle attaches during cell division.
- Canadian researchers publishing in PNAS say intrinsically disordered regions (IDRs) are widespread and have diverse functions
This is that fallacy I was talking about earlier. Finding a function for tiny portions of junk DNA is not evidence that all junk DNA has function. For example, what portion of the genome do the repeats around centromeres comprise? Maybe 1% of the total genome, 0.1%? Finding activity in 1% of repeats does not mean that all repeats have function. This should be obvious, yet you keep making this mistake.
While UCSF still thinks much is junk scientists are finding more function and less junk as time goes by.
What percentage have they found activity for? An additional 1% of DNA compared to 10 years ago?
With Fresh Funding, ENCODE Team Continues Demolition of Junk DNA Myth
Evolution News | @DiscoveryCSC
February 13, 2017
With Fresh Funding, ENCODE Team Continues Demolition of “Junk DNA” Myth | Evolution News
Enough with the lying creationist sites. Please use a proper scientific reference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by CRR, posted 06-11-2017 11:12 PM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 481 of 1311 (811835)
06-12-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Faith
06-12-2017 3:04 AM


Re: Junk
Faith writes:
I think a great deal of junk in the genome fits with the Fall, being one of the ways death has worked on living systems.
You think a lot of things. The trouble you have is providing evidence for what you think.
The first problem you need to solve is why we see greater conservation of sequence between species for functional DNA as compared to junk DNA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 3:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 482 of 1311 (811836)
06-12-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Dredge
06-12-2017 5:55 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
Dredge writes:
Thank you for supplying this article. I will add it to my collection as it represents a classical example of mendacious Darwinist propaganda.
The only mendacious propaganda is the claim that if common ancestry is not used in a practical manner in the field of medicine that common ancestry can't be true.
Secondly, when it says, "the evolutionary principle of common descent has proven its usefulness", this is really Darwinist-speak for, "the fact of genetic similarities between different organisms has proven its usefulness." This is explained by the fact that Darwinists consider that there can be no other possible explanation for genetic similarities between organisms other than common descent. So when they see said genetic similarities, they see common descent. This false equivalence is a form of intellectual alchemy, but is de rigueur in evolutionary "science".
As you have already shown, creationism can't explain the nested hierarchy. Evolution can. Evolution is currently the only explanation we have for the observed pattern of shared derived characteristics, including DNA sequences. Even you couldn't explain how creationism could produce this pattern of similarity.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Dredge, posted 06-12-2017 5:55 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 506 of 1311 (812457)
06-16-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by aristotle
06-16-2017 3:05 AM


Re: Introns and Exons
Aristotle writes:
The exon/intron divergence can be satisfactorily explained as the result of the relative overabundance of synonymous sites involved in CpG dinucleotides:
Neutral Substitutions Occur at a Faster Rate in Exons Than in Noncoding DNA in Primate Genomes
The paper you linked to shows just the opposite:
"Point mutation rates in exons (synonymous sites) and noncoding (introns and intergenic) regions are generally assumed to be the same. However, comparative sequence analyses of synonymous substitutions in exons (81 genes) and that of long intergenic fragments (141.3 kbp) of human and chimpanzee genomes reveal a 30%—60% higher mutation rate in exons than in noncoding DNA."
That paper is saying that the mutation rate in exons is higher than in introns. However, when we compare genomes between species we see more conservation of sequence in exons than in introns, the exact opposite of the observed mutation rate. The only explanation for this is natural selection against deleterious mutations in exons through evolution from a common ancestor.
With ID/Creationism we always hear that a designer would simply copy sequence from one species to the next, so why not copy the introns straight over? Introns are clipped out of the initial RNA molecule to form mature mRNA that is then made into protein. In a few instances there are things like microRNAs within the introns, but for the most part they show no evidence of function. Their sequence makes no impact one way or another.
So why not have nearly the same introns in the human and mouse genomes while changing exons to produce the observed difference in phenotype? Why would a designer spend the time to create more divergence in the introns than in the exons, and do it in a way that produces a nested hierarchy? It makes no sense. This pattern only makes sense if evolution is true.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 3:05 AM aristotle has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 507 of 1311 (812459)
06-16-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by aristotle
06-16-2017 3:44 AM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Aristotle writes:
For discussion's sake, if there was a creator, why is it that you think life could not be created in this hierarchical phylogenetic structure?
Wrong question.
If creationism is true, why would we expect to see a nested hierarchy? Out of all the trillions of possible combinations of features and DNA, why pick the one pattern that evolution would produce?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 3:44 AM aristotle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2017 6:11 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 508 of 1311 (812462)
06-16-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by aristotle
06-16-2017 11:46 AM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Aristotle writes:
Evolution has never been observed to happen anywhere, and cannot explain complex biological systems.
It has been observed many times, such as in the evolution of melanism in pocket mice:
Just a moment...
In this example, scientists were able to find the mutations that led to the new phenotype, and show how it was selected for in specific environments. This isn't a case of mice turning black because they sensed they were in an area with black rocks. This adaptation required a mutation.
How can you say that speciation occurs, if you don't even know what the word 'species' means?
Do you know what the words "young" and "old" mean?
If so, can you tell me the microsecond in a person's lifetime when they go from being objectively young to objectively old? No? Species are the same thing. Species are a spectrum.
But more importantly, we look at the effect that reproductively isolation has on the genetics of a population. That is the true measure of ongoing speciation events, where different mutations or different alleles come to dominate each separate population due to the lack of free interbreeding. Even in cases with limited interbreeding you can still get population specific genetic changes to occur.
So you claim, but all that DNA is, is information. If there is an advancement in DNA there is an advancement of information, they're one and the same.
These are yet more undefined terms. How do you determine if there is an "advancement in DNA"? If we were to compare the chimp and human genome, would you be able to point to the advancements?
Again there was no information from your page about the plankton fossils that convinced me that there were different species, they all looked very similar.
A chimp and a human look similar:
Whether it is or not, you didn't answer the question of why there aren't the transitionals you'd expect to see.
Every single transitional is the transitional we would expect to see. All of them fit into the nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 11:46 AM aristotle has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 509 of 1311 (812471)
06-16-2017 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by aristotle
06-16-2017 11:54 AM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Aristotle writes:
Not at all
The nested hierarchy is a fact. Evolution is the best explanation for that fact.
If you think we are wrong, then show us how ID/creationism predicts a nested hierarchy, and only a nested hierarchy for complex eukaryotes. If you can't do that, then you have to admit that evolution is the best explanation because evolution does predict a nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by aristotle, posted 06-16-2017 11:54 AM aristotle has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 528 of 1311 (812676)
06-19-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Dredge
06-17-2017 4:31 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
Moot point. Why did God create spiders with eight legs ... the sky blue ... grass green ... jelly fish ... flies? Why did he give Dredge super-intelligence and movie-star looks? Not understanding why the Creator created as he did is not a persuasive argument against it happening.
Creationists just can't seem to grasp the simple concept that they need positive evidence that God did create something. This isn't about us trying to disprove creationism. This is about creationists needing to put forth evidence for their position. This is called the "burden of proof". If ID/creationism can not explain the facts, then ID/creationism is not accepted. Since ID/creationism can not explain the twin nested hierarchies, then ID/creationism is not accepted. Evolution DOES explain the twin nested hierarchy which is why scientists accept evolution over ID/creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2017 4:31 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 541 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:15 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 529 of 1311 (812678)
06-19-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by Dredge
06-17-2017 4:49 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
The dogma, arrogance and indoctrination of Darwinism reminds me of what you find in the worst kind of cults .. and some religions. Darwinism is like the Taliban of science.
This is what we call psychological projection. Notice how you have to attack the messenger instead of dealing with the message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2017 4:49 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 530 of 1311 (812679)
06-19-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Dredge
06-17-2017 5:22 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
Hence, Darwinists can justify claiming antibiotic resistance is "evolution", which requires no increase in genetic information.
You have yet to show that evolution requires an increase in genetic information.
For example, compare the human and chimp genomes. Can you show us how those genomes differ in information content? Probably not, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Dredge, posted 06-17-2017 5:22 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:40 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 531 of 1311 (812680)
06-19-2017 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by Dredge
06-18-2017 6:26 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
But genetic informaton is a logical concept that I expect science will verify as an irrefutable fact one day.
They have already done that. At the same time, they have also shown that information can evolve.
quote:
Evolution of biological information
Thomas D. Schneider
Nucleic Acids Res (2000) 28 (14): 2794-2799.
How do genetic systems gain information by evolutionary processes? Answering this question precisely requires a robust, quantitative measure of information. Fortunately, 50 years ago Claude Shannon defined information as a decrease in the uncertainty of a receiver. For molecular systems, uncertainty is closely related to entropy and hence has clear connections to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. These aspects of information theory have allowed the development of a straightforward and practical method of measuring information in genetic control systems. Here this method is used to observe information gain in the binding sites for an artificial ‘protein’ in a computer simulation of evolution. The simulation begins with zero information and, as in naturally occurring genetic systems, the information measured in the fully evolved binding sites is close to that needed to locate the sites in the genome. The transition is rapid, demonstrating that information gain can occur by punctuated equilibrium.
Evolution of biological information | Nucleic Acids Research | Oxford Academic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Dredge, posted 06-18-2017 6:26 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 538 of 1311 (812813)
06-20-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 533 by Dredge
06-19-2017 10:26 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
The bottom line is, a Catholic can believe anything as long as it doesn't compromise the doctrines, teachings and dogmas of the Church.
That sure sounds like an admission that you reject evolution because of your religious beliefs and not because of any scientific reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2017 10:26 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 539 of 1311 (812814)
06-20-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 534 by Dredge
06-19-2017 10:39 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
Dredge writes:
Huh? I'm saying anyone who accepts evolution is wrong - theists included. BioLogos and Talk Origins are both wrong.
How can you say they are wrong when you don't even understand the most basic science that undergirds the theory of evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by Dredge, posted 06-19-2017 10:39 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:09 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024