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Author | Topic: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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CRR writes: Well so far we have found that the terms evolution, theory of evolution, species, kinds, microevolution, and macroevolution, can all be clearly defined; just not in a way that everyone agrees with. Definitions seem to be remarkably idiosyncratic. Definitions are context dependent.
This is why evo-biologists can get excited by Trinidad Guppies and Galapagos Finches and say the trivial changes observed are evolution in action. Macroevolution is the accumulation of what you call trivial changes.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CRR writes: Actually that is pretty much a hyperbolic statement of what evolutionists claims. It would be extremely helpful if you would use scientific statements instead of hyperbolic ones.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CRR writes: Actually you're right, they don't give a definition of kind in the linked article. But I have previously given my definition in Message 644However the question of how members of a kind are determined is covered in there. Defining what a holobaramin is does not tell us how you determine which species belong in an holobaramin. You don't list any criteria for determining which species belong to the same kind.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge writes: Biologists regularly cite antibiotic resistance as an example of evolution. Antibiotic resistance is nothing more than natural selection. False. The emergence of antibiotic resistance also includes random mutations and/or horizontal genetic transfer followed by natural selection. The combination of genetic changes and natural selection adds up to evolution.
Furthermore, if natural selection is "evolution" and common descent is "evolution", how can evolution not be used as evidence of evolution? First, natural selection nor common descent are evolution. Secondly, are you saying that observations of evolution in action is not evidence for evolution? Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Dredge writes: Talk Origins is hardly a trustworthy source of facts, after all. That, my friend, is what we call projection. You go to creationist websites that publish known lies. You repeat them. When those lies are exposed, you try to diminish this problem by calling everyone else liars. When you are ready to stop repeating creationist lies published on creationist websites, let us know.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge writes: I quoted from somewhere without reading the original sources. Nevertheless, evolution remains a useless theory. I already demonstrated that evolution is useful with many different examples. Seems your memory is a bit dodgy.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Dredge writes: Genetic variations in a bacteria population mean that some bacteria may survive the antibiotic and thus eventually come to dominate the population. You can start an experiment with a single bacterium and grow an entire population from that single founder. What you will find is that 1 in a few hundred million bacteria will produce resistance to different kinds of antibiotic. This isn't a case of pre-existing variation. This is a case of mutations producing new characteristics. The same applies for the pocket mice. We know which mutations produce black fur, and we also know that those mutations had to arise in a population of brown mice because the black rocks they are found on are very recent (geologically speaking).
The theory that all life on earth evolved from a common ancestor = common descent ... and this is not evolution? Common descent is a conclusion, not a theory.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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NosyNed writes: A population of individuals may consist of one or many groups that have gene flow between them to a greater or lessor extent. My preferred definition for species is "a population that is evolving together".
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
NosyNed writes: Much more crisp!But evolving together isn't binary. They can be evolving together a lot or only a very little. That's where statistics comes in. If there is a statistically significant difference in allele distributions between two defined populations then you can objectively define "evolving separately".
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CRR writes: Almost right. However the mutations aren't produced in response to antibiotics. Samples of bacteria preserved from before the use of antibiotics (e.g. Franklin Expedition) have a very small proportion that are resistant. So wild populations have pre-existing variation which includes antibiotic resistance. As shown by the experiment, those variations are produced by mutations.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge writes: You have tautologised yourself into an illogical statement - the process of natural selection requires genetic variation in a population to be present in order for it to act. Think about it ... if there were no genetic variation in the population, all the relevant organisms would be exactly the same, so no particular strain of the population would be selected for survival. (In which case, the entire popularion would survive or the entire population would die.) That's why natural selection by itself is not the totality of evolution. You also need random mutations (with respect to fitness) producing new variations.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge writes: I accept that there are many practical uses for some of the things that come under the umbrella of what you call "evolution". However, you have not demonstrated that the theory that all life shares a common ancestor (ie, evolution) has any use in applied science. Good luck with that one. Universal common descent is useful for explaining the distribution of characteristics amongst all life, which is a very useful theory in biology.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge writes: First of all, it seems to me that you are making an assumption - ie, that the mutations are "new". Is it not possible that bacteria are continually mutating through a fixed repertoire of mutations? ("repertoire" is a french word derived from "to repeat") If you randomly pick a card out of a deck you will pick the same card with enough draws. Those are still random draws even though a pick is repeated.
To humans, these mutations may may appear to be novel, but only because they haven't seen them before. I said they are random (with respect to fitness), not novel. It is entirely possible for two populations to produce the same random mutation in the same way that you can pick the same card from two random draws.
Secondly, as I have already pointed out, Peppered Moths were known to produce white and blacks variants, yet the process of natural selection they experienced due to colour is nevertheless referred to as "evolution". That process includes the mutations that produce the two colors.
Evolutionary biologists claim that all life descended from a common ancestor. How can you say this is not a theory? Claims are not necessarily a theory. A claim can also be a conclusion drawn from evidence, which is the case with universal common descent. Conclusions and theories are two different things. Edited by Taq, : No reason given. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge writes: You seem to be under the impression that a theory offered to explain a certain obsevation is, in and of itself, useful. Since the entire purpose of science is to explain observations, it kind of goes without saying.
Scientists have an explantion for why the sky is blue. Said explanation is not useful in any practical sense; it's just a theory ... an idea ... a story ... ink on paper. Are you saying that this explanation is not true because it is not "useful" in your estimation?
In a similar way, universal common descent is a theory that attempts to explain an observation, That is false. Universal common descent is a conclusion, not a theory. It is also of practical use, such as the SIFTER algorithm that can predict protein function:
quote:
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Dredge writes: The Peppered Moth case didn't involve new variations, Yes, it did. The new variation was the black color caused by mutations.
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