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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 675 of 1311 (814239)
07-05-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:33 AM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:
Well so far we have found that the terms evolution, theory of evolution, species, kinds, microevolution, and macroevolution, can all be clearly defined; just not in a way that everyone agrees with. Definitions seem to be remarkably idiosyncratic.
Definitions are context dependent.
This is why evo-biologists can get excited by Trinidad Guppies and Galapagos Finches and say the trivial changes observed are evolution in action.
Macroevolution is the accumulation of what you call trivial changes.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 676 of 1311 (814240)
07-05-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:53 AM


Re: A Blast from the Past
CRR writes:
Actually that is pretty much a hyperbolic statement of what evolutionists claims.
It would be extremely helpful if you would use scientific statements instead of hyperbolic ones.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 677 of 1311 (814243)
07-05-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by CRR
07-04-2017 10:40 PM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:
Actually you're right, they don't give a definition of kind in the linked article. But I have previously given my definition in Message 644
However the question of how members of a kind are determined is covered in there.
Defining what a holobaramin is does not tell us how you determine which species belong in an holobaramin. You don't list any criteria for determining which species belong to the same kind.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 688 of 1311 (814317)
07-06-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 678 by Dredge
07-06-2017 4:56 AM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes:
Biologists regularly cite antibiotic resistance as an example of evolution. Antibiotic resistance is nothing more than natural selection.
False. The emergence of antibiotic resistance also includes random mutations and/or horizontal genetic transfer followed by natural selection. The combination of genetic changes and natural selection adds up to evolution.
Furthermore, if natural selection is "evolution" and common descent is "evolution", how can evolution not be used as evidence of evolution?
First, natural selection nor common descent are evolution.
Secondly, are you saying that observations of evolution in action is not evidence for evolution?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 678 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 4:56 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 699 by Dredge, posted 07-09-2017 5:14 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 689 of 1311 (814318)
07-06-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by Dredge
07-06-2017 6:04 AM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
Talk Origins is hardly a trustworthy source of facts, after all.
That, my friend, is what we call projection. You go to creationist websites that publish known lies. You repeat them. When those lies are exposed, you try to diminish this problem by calling everyone else liars.
When you are ready to stop repeating creationist lies published on creationist websites, let us know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 6:04 AM Dredge has replied

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 710 of 1311 (814535)
07-10-2017 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by Dredge
07-09-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
I quoted from somewhere without reading the original sources. Nevertheless, evolution remains a useless theory.
I already demonstrated that evolution is useful with many different examples. Seems your memory is a bit dodgy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by Dredge, posted 07-09-2017 5:30 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 711 of 1311 (814536)
07-10-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by Dredge
07-09-2017 5:14 PM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes:
Genetic variations in a bacteria population mean that some bacteria may survive the antibiotic and thus eventually come to dominate the population.
You can start an experiment with a single bacterium and grow an entire population from that single founder. What you will find is that 1 in a few hundred million bacteria will produce resistance to different kinds of antibiotic. This isn't a case of pre-existing variation. This is a case of mutations producing new characteristics.
The same applies for the pocket mice. We know which mutations produce black fur, and we also know that those mutations had to arise in a population of brown mice because the black rocks they are found on are very recent (geologically speaking).
The theory that all life on earth evolved from a common ancestor = common descent ... and this is not evolution?
Common descent is a conclusion, not a theory.

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 Message 699 by Dredge, posted 07-09-2017 5:14 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by CRR, posted 07-11-2017 6:47 AM Taq has replied
 Message 723 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 8:09 AM Taq has replied
 Message 756 by Dredge, posted 07-12-2017 8:36 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 712 of 1311 (814538)
07-10-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by NosyNed
07-10-2017 10:52 AM


Re: Species
NosyNed writes:
A population of individuals may consist of one or many groups that have gene flow between them to a greater or lessor extent.
My preferred definition for species is "a population that is evolving together".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by NosyNed, posted 07-10-2017 10:52 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by NosyNed, posted 07-10-2017 6:39 PM Taq has replied
 Message 714 by CRR, posted 07-11-2017 6:25 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 725 of 1311 (814637)
07-11-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 713 by NosyNed
07-10-2017 6:39 PM


Re: Species
NosyNed writes:
Much more crisp!
But evolving together isn't binary. They can be evolving together a lot or only a very little.
That's where statistics comes in. If there is a statistically significant difference in allele distributions between two defined populations then you can objectively define "evolving separately".

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Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 726 of 1311 (814638)
07-11-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 715 by CRR
07-11-2017 6:47 AM


Re: define "species"
CRR writes:
Almost right. However the mutations aren't produced in response to antibiotics. Samples of bacteria preserved from before the use of antibiotics (e.g. Franklin Expedition) have a very small proportion that are resistant. So wild populations have pre-existing variation which includes antibiotic resistance.
As shown by the experiment, those variations are produced by mutations.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 727 of 1311 (814640)
07-11-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 716 by Dredge
07-11-2017 6:58 AM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes:
You have tautologised yourself into an illogical statement - the process of natural selection requires genetic variation in a population to be present in order for it to act. Think about it ... if there were no genetic variation in the population, all the relevant organisms would be exactly the same, so no particular strain of the population would be selected for survival. (In which case, the entire popularion would survive or the entire population would die.)
That's why natural selection by itself is not the totality of evolution. You also need random mutations (with respect to fitness) producing new variations.

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 Message 716 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 6:58 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 728 of 1311 (814641)
07-11-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 720 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:31 AM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
I accept that there are many practical uses for some of the things that come under the umbrella of what you call "evolution". However, you have not demonstrated that the theory that all life shares a common ancestor (ie, evolution) has any use in applied science. Good luck with that one.
Universal common descent is useful for explaining the distribution of characteristics amongst all life, which is a very useful theory in biology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 7:31 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 6:28 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 729 of 1311 (814642)
07-11-2017 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Dredge
07-11-2017 8:09 AM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes:
First of all, it seems to me that you are making an assumption - ie, that the mutations are "new". Is it not possible that bacteria are continually mutating through a fixed repertoire of mutations? ("repertoire" is a french word derived from "to repeat")
If you randomly pick a card out of a deck you will pick the same card with enough draws. Those are still random draws even though a pick is repeated.
To humans, these mutations may may appear to be novel, but only because they haven't seen them before.
I said they are random (with respect to fitness), not novel. It is entirely possible for two populations to produce the same random mutation in the same way that you can pick the same card from two random draws.
Secondly, as I have already pointed out, Peppered Moths were known to produce white and blacks variants, yet the process of natural selection they experienced due to colour is nevertheless referred to as "evolution".
That process includes the mutations that produce the two colors.
Evolutionary biologists claim that all life descended from a common ancestor. How can you say this is not a theory?
Claims are not necessarily a theory. A claim can also be a conclusion drawn from evidence, which is the case with universal common descent. Conclusions and theories are two different things.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 746 of 1311 (814718)
07-12-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 735 by Dredge
07-11-2017 6:28 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
You seem to be under the impression that a theory offered to explain a certain obsevation is, in and of itself, useful.
Since the entire purpose of science is to explain observations, it kind of goes without saying.
Scientists have an explantion for why the sky is blue. Said explanation is not useful in any practical sense; it's just a theory ... an idea ... a story ... ink on paper.
Are you saying that this explanation is not true because it is not "useful" in your estimation?
In a similar way, universal common descent is a theory that attempts to explain an observation,
That is false. Universal common descent is a conclusion, not a theory.
It is also of practical use, such as the SIFTER algorithm that can predict protein function:
quote:
PLoS Comput Biol. 2005 Oct;1(5):e45. Epub 2005 Oct 7.
Protein molecular function prediction by Bayesian phylogenomics.
Engelhardt BE1, Jordan MI, Muratore KE, Brenner SE.
We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5‘-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature. The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%). We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction. The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems. A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 6:28 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 761 by Dredge, posted 07-12-2017 9:10 PM Taq has replied
 Message 801 by Dredge, posted 07-13-2017 10:01 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 747 of 1311 (814719)
07-12-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:54 PM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes:
The Peppered Moth case didn't involve new variations,
Yes, it did. The new variation was the black color caused by mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 7:54 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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