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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 930 of 1311 (815384)
07-19-2017 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 928 by ringo
07-19-2017 3:43 PM


Re: Hypotheory
ringo writes:
A theory, specifically one like evolution, is not based on one hypothesis.
Precisely.
We could look at the Theory of Relativity as an example. From that theory, or model, you could hypothesize that starlight would be bent as it passes by the Sun. You can test that hypothesis by measuring the location of stars during an eclipse as well as when the stars are farther away from the Sun. If their position changes with relation to other stars, then the hypothesis is confirmed. You can conclude that starlight is bent as it passes by the Sun. That conclusion supports the larger theory. The Theory of Relativity also makes many other testable predictions about things such as time dilation. Relativity started as a theory, not as a hypothesis.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 955 of 1311 (815458)
07-20-2017 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 931 by CRR
07-19-2017 11:13 PM


Re: seven "assumptions"
CRR writes:
While Kerkut says "spontaneous generation occurred only once" others such as Dobzhansky say that "It is also possible that there were several, or even many, origins of life; if so, the progeny of only one of them has survived and inherited the earth" Both result in Universal Common Ancestry.
So as far as I can see Kerkut's assumptions are bog standard evolutionist beliefs.
If there were one or multiple simple original life forms that were created by a deity, and those simple life forms produced the biodiversity we see over billions of years, what would we need to change in the theory of evolution?

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 956 of 1311 (815460)
07-20-2017 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 941 by Dredge
07-20-2017 1:53 AM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
A trivial sermantic misunderstanding like this is hardly going to alter my views about evolution.
As already shown, no amount of evidence or facts will change your views.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 957 of 1311 (815461)
07-20-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 940 by Dredge
07-20-2017 1:41 AM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
Can you give me a Dredge-simple example, please?
If you can't understand that explanation, then you have no place calling evolution a religion, or claiming that it is false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 940 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2017 1:41 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 978 of 1311 (815571)
07-21-2017 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 960 by Dredge
07-20-2017 11:57 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
It comes as no surprise all that you can't give me an example.
There is an example in the paper I already cited for you:
quote:
We selected a well-characterized protein family, the adenosine-5‘-monophosphate (AMP)/adenosine deaminase family, for evaluation of SIFTER's predictions against a gold standard set of function annotations. We assessed these using experimental annotations that we manually identified in the literature, accepting only first-hand experimental results that were successful in unambiguously characterizing the specific chemical reaction in question. References are provided in Dataset S1 for each protein characterized in this way. The gaccuracyh percentages presented here reflect the product of the percentage of proteins that received a prediction and, of those, the percentage that were gcorrect,h i.e., had the same GO terms as the gold standard test set.
The AMP/adenosine deaminase Pfam family contains 128 proteins. Based on five proteins with experimental annotations from the GOA database, we ran SIFTER to make predictions for the remaining 123 proteins. Of these remaining proteins, 28 had experimental characterizations found by the manual literature search. SIFTER achieved 96% accuracy (27 of 28) for predicting a correct function against this gold standard dataset. SIFTER performed better than BLAST, GeneQuiz, GOtcha, GOtcha-exp (GOtcha transferring only experimental GO annotations), and Orthostrapper (75%, 64%, 89%, 79%, and 11% accuracy, respectively). The comparative results are summarized in Figure 1A. The complete data for these analyses are available in Dataset S1.
We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5′-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature. The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%). We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction. The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems. A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.

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 Message 960 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2017 11:57 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 979 of 1311 (815572)
07-21-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 961 by Dredge
07-21-2017 12:27 AM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
You forgot to mention the widdle ol' fact that "common ancestry" is an assumption.
It's a conclusion drawn from evidence.
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

This message is a reply to:
 Message 961 by Dredge, posted 07-21-2017 12:27 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 980 of 1311 (815573)
07-21-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 964 by Dredge
07-21-2017 1:18 AM


Dredge writes:
It never ceases to amaze me that in this day and age there are educated adults who believe that dead matter can somehow produce life.
How do you think life came about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 964 by Dredge, posted 07-21-2017 1:18 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 994 by Dredge, posted 07-21-2017 10:39 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 981 of 1311 (815575)
07-21-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 972 by Faith
07-21-2017 8:45 AM


Re: Let's call this the Genesis 2:7 message
Faith writes:
I guess either can be called a superstition if that's your point, but Genesis 2:7 gives the essential difference between life spontaneously coming out of matter and God creating life by using matter, which is that, according to the Bible, the life doesn't come from the matter, God breathes life into the matter after He's formed the material body. Matter can't breathe life into itself, even if it could somehow come up with the material shell, which of course it couldn't without the life in it. In other words life is something entirely different from matter, matter is just the vehicle for life to be able to function in the physical universe.
A deity creating life from dirt is the very definition of superstition.

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 Message 972 by Faith, posted 07-21-2017 8:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 983 by Faith, posted 07-21-2017 10:57 AM Taq has replied
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 Message 1003 by CRR, posted 07-22-2017 10:25 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 985 of 1311 (815589)
07-21-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 983 by Faith
07-21-2017 10:57 AM


Re: Let's call this the Genesis 2:7 message
Faith writes:
Call it whatever you want but as I said it is NOT about "creating life from dirt," it clearly says that life CANNOT be created from dirt, that the principle of life is something other than dirt that must be added.
Then how did life come about, according to you?

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1048 of 1311 (815787)
07-24-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 993 by Dredge
07-21-2017 10:34 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
An irrelevant point of semantics,
That is what your entire argument is about, semantics.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1049 of 1311 (815788)
07-24-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by Dredge
07-21-2017 10:39 PM


Dredge writes:
Read the first chapter of the book of Genesis in the Bible.
That would be superstition.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1050 of 1311 (815789)
07-24-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by CRR
07-23-2017 1:51 AM


Re: Common Ancestry; assumption or conclusion?
CRR writes:
For Charles Darwin it appears that common ancestry was the assumption for which natural selection provided an explanation.
For modern scientists it is a conclusion, not an assumption. We have the evidence demonstrating common ancestry.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 1051 of 1311 (815790)
07-24-2017 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Dredge
07-23-2017 4:53 AM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
How can you expect me to understand this? It's written in a foreign language! Regardless, it would no doubt be based on facts that any creation-believing biologist would agree with. Such facts lead to either a conclusion of common descent or a conclusion of a common Creator, depending on which philosophical camp one belongs to. In other words, SIFTER will produce results regardless of how anyone thinks life came to be - because it depends on scientific facts, not on a subjective and irrelevant view of history.
Please explain why a Common Designer would produce a nested hierarchy (i.e. a phylogeny).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Dredge, posted 07-23-2017 4:53 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


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Message 1052 of 1311 (815791)
07-24-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1012 by Faith
07-23-2017 7:56 AM


Re: Let's call this the Genesis 2:7 message
Faith writes:
Ha ha, so true. Same superstition but without the creative Mind, and they actually believe it!
You are the only one who believes that life was magically poofed into being.
It's obviously impossible but "science" has no problem with such an impossibility while calling the reasonable explanation of a Creator a superstition.
When did magical poofing become a reasonable explanation?

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 Message 1012 by Faith, posted 07-23-2017 7:56 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 1053 of 1311 (815792)
07-24-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Dredge
07-24-2017 2:25 AM


Re: Let's call this the Genesis 2:7 message
Dredge writes:
Get a grip. No one knows what happened billions of years ago. Scientists who think they do are egotistical bs-artists.
Once again, all you have is name calling. You can't counter the scientists, so you call the scientists names.
Here's a bit of advice. Grow up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Dredge, posted 07-24-2017 2:25 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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