Religion or Science - How do they compare?

This is true of all the lesser gods and the Bible is full of references to them. They are fallen angels or demons and the Israelites are always falling into the sin of worshiping them and being punished for it. The Bible exists partly to distinguish the one true living Creator God from all those lesser gods, and teach humanity what true worship of the true God is all about, to rescue us from the demon gods who have oppressed humanity since the Fall when their leader Satan deceived our first parents. Jesus' death on the cross was the pivotal event that made the rescue a reality.The Bible could be said to be in essence the record of God's great rescue operation, to rescue the human race from all the effects of the Fall, including the deterioration of our created powers and slavery to the demons. which also of course requires forgiving and doing away with our sins, which are the reason we go to Hell. There are many passages where the idolatrous nations or individuals of those nations, such as Rahab, and Ruth the Moabitess, discover that the God of Israel is in fact the Creator God and not just one of the lesser gods of the kind they worship, along with all the passages where Israel falls into heathen idolatry.. There isn't one unambiguously clear interpretation of this phrase that I've been able to find, there are lots of different opinions about it, but I'd say it is highly unlikely that the one true Creator God who made all the lesser gods, and whose Word so frequently condemns their worship, would identify Himself with them in such a way. That being the case it is most likely that the "us" is the Trinitarian God, one God in three Persons.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There is no "Trinity" in the Bible either, but hundreds of references to God that clearly define One God in Three Persons.So the Fall is likewise implicit in many passages, and without it there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.At the Fall we lost the function of our spirit and became flesh; we also became subjects of the demon "gods" -- Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

You demonstrate your own depth of ignorance of the Bible and how it is to be understood when you say such things. You may have literally "read" it but obviously without a clue as to what it really means.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Only according to your illiterate way of reading it.

Wrong on all counts.

Wrong as usual. (I've learned from you that brief one liners are very effective.)Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Wrong as usual.Hey this is fun.

I know you know the Bible well NOW, I was talking about before you read it. As I understood it, you already considered yourself a Christian before you read it. If not, please correct.I know very well that once someone has made up his mind in the direction you have it's pointless to try to talk you out of it and yet I always end up trying anyway.I doubt I could find sermons specifically directed to the topics you list, though I'm sure they get discussed in passing in many. However, I'll sketch out my own answers. Are you aware that it was Christians who led the movement against slavery? Wilberforce in England, the abolitionists in the US. They took their cue from the Bible. It is implicit that people not be the possessions of others when possible. Paul's letter to Philemon is the only direct statement that slaves should be set free, however. And yet he is very respectful of the slave owner and doesn't order him to give up his slave or insult him, just says it would be the Christian thing to do.Slavery was a universal institution, and still exists in many nonChristian nations. The Bible reports on slavery, it does not condone it, and God prescribed humane laws for its conduct. As I understand it God didn't outlaw it because it was so woven into the cultural fabric of the day and especially the economic side of life nobody would have obeyed it and would therefore have lived with a bad conscience. God is wise enough not to provoke people unnecessarily. A great deal of slavery was entered into as a way to pay off debts that people had no other way to pay. Women were put under the curse of the Fall by being subjected to the rule of husbands, even their tyranny. This attitude is shown in all the heathen cultures of the world, and only lifted in Christian nations and now those nations that imitate the Christian nations. The Bible shows a very liberal attitude toward women by comparison with the cultures of the world of the day, since some women have a recognized and admired role in events their social position would normally forbid. Nevertheless they remained under the thumb of men throughout biblical history, and also in New Testament times, though Jesus is famous for his inclusion of women, even to the point of offending His male disciples. His death liberates us from the curse of the Fall. Again the Bible is dealing with an ingrained social system that would resist and even ridicule and probably be violernt toward any attempt to liberate women. But as with slavery, it sowed the seeds for liberation when the times changed enough to support it.abe: The ironic thing in all this moral attack on God is that the attackers are using God's own work against Him. Without Christianity there would not have been any move to eradicate slavery or to improve the lot of women. Or for that matter to care for the sick or elderly or parentless children. People were just put out on the streets to die or fend for themselves, children included. Christians founded hospitals and orphanages, starting by personally caring for the sick and for abandoned children. Newborns put out to die were rescued by Chrstians. Effortts to help the poor were initiated by Christians. The Magna Carta was a Christian inspiration. And despite the fact that the American founders were not Christians they carried the Christian worldview into their designing of the American institutions. The paganism the west is now regressing to has no love of humanity as Christianity does.

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And I'll add here that His severe justice that is considered to be "genocide" and immoral is in reality a great mercy to humanity because the wickedness being judged can drag society into worse and worse wickedness making prey of the innocent, and worse judgements because of it. But it takes a basic love and trust of God to understand that He knows what He is doing and that it is for our good. /abe Homosexual acts are sin, period, and gay marriage is a direct violation of God's ordinance of marriage. But the Bible certainly doesn't condone any mistreatment of homosexuals. They are sinners to be saved like everyone else. That event ought to teach us how evil sin is in God's eyes that it deserved such extreme punishment. But there's also reason to think it was far worse in those days than since the Flood. "The imagination of men's hearts was only evil all the time" and "the world was filled with violence." God's justice is often severe, but it is justice and not a moral failure. To my mind that accusation is disgusting and scary since it invites judgment against any nation that promotes such an idea, and individuals too of course. Again this is a story we are to learn from, about God's moral judgments. Against the idolatries of the nation in this case -- the various plagues brought against Egypt represent their demon gods, the frogs, the flies, all of it, and against the enslavement of God's people. Rescuing the Hebrews was a declaration that they belong to the one true Creator God who has authority and power over all the world, and all the heathen religions and nations of the world, not just the Hebrews. And many Egyptians got the message and were among those who put the lamb's blood on their doorposts and escaped the angel of death, and accompanied the Israelites on their exodus. Again this was judgment for their idolatrous religions, which included the sacrifice of babies to their demon gods and homosexual acts as "worship" of the gods. (There was also one incident where the Jews took vengeance on some tribe that had attacked them and dashed out their babies' brains, so the Jews did it back to them, on their own and not at God's command, but I forget where that is. One of the psalms describes the events.)You may have noticed phrasing along the lines of how the time has not yet been fulfilled for this or that, or now the time is fulfilled. That is about the immoralities either not yet having reached the level for judgment -- or having reached it. We in the west are now certainly under judgment ourselves; when the fullness of our offenses is reached it isn't going to be fun. We don't know how people who never heard the gospel will be treated by God. The Bible often speaks of heathen peoples who intuitively obey His law. Since we don't know I'd leave it to Him, but of course continue to send out missionaries to bring as many as possible to the gospel of salvation. I regard God as wise and merciful of course, which obviously you don't. Those explicitly slated for Hell are pretty clearly defined in the Bible and it includes some Pharisees and other religious leaders. I certainly wish you the best, which means I hope you will come to your senses and see how wrong you are about all this. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I hope Phat doesn't mind if I stick in my own comment here. It's always risky to speak of our own personal relationship with God to unbelievers, but it is true that if we really are believers that God will guide us. But we have to be seeking Him and seeking His guidance, and we're all at different levels of understanding and different levels of being a "mess" as you put it. God takes us where we are, He doesn't impose standards on us He knows we can't obey, and He doesn't expect us to be able to overcome personality problems we've had all our lives. But He is always available to lead us step by step if we put ourselves in His hands. And a lot of us forget to do that coinsistently. The more we trust Him and ask for His guidance the more He will give it to us. But we have to learn to trust and to ask. Solomon had great wisdom because He asked God for it and then devoted himself to listening for it. In any case we can only receive wisdom at whatever level we've already arrived and God doesn't push us.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Not made up. Comes from years of reading theology and devotional writers and some who might be called "supersaints." God definitely gives wisdom, we who receive it are quite aware of the expansion of our understanding, but if you are expecting an ordinary person to suddenly become Solomon himself, forget it.

Idolatry was a great evil involving human sacrifice to demons and sexual acts of "worship." I already explained that slavery was too enmeshed in the culture's economy to forbid it. There is no reasonable comparison with idolatry. And women are still under the curse of the Fall which was decreed by God for Eve's sin, and that doesn't get lifted until Christianity had spread quite a bit. Why would God lift His curse before its time? And once again, the death penalty is justice, not a crime.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Hitch was wrong. God created us perfect and we fell into sin and got sick as a result.

Of course you know I disagree with most of what you wrote here, and I thought maybe I should just leave it alone, but, well, it usually seems like a good idea just to get my completely different point of view said.Some Christians have indeed done some very bad things. The Popes for instance who promoted the Inquisition that killed millions of Bible believing Christians along with some Jews and Muslims and so on. And yes some "Christians" defended slavery. And so on.True Christianity is not, however, a man made religion, the Bible was inspired by God from beginning to end. Here's one statement of what is believed by traditionally taught Christians: You are accusing God of criminality for His severe punishment of criminals/"the wicked." We are seriously at fault when we refuse to punish criminals severely, such as by abandoning the death penalty. It is in fact love to punish criminals to protect the innocent and society in general. Judging God by your human standards is a very serious sin.Yes we are called to a life of love and mercy, which is only possible through the power of God Himself given to us through the Holy Spirit when we believe. Theology is simply the codification of the teachings of God's word.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yes I do worship a God who prescribed public stoning back when that was the usual way of executing the death penalty for transgressions of the law. No "child" was stoned, however, I'm sure you are talking about the disobedient son, but he was an adult. And "genocide" is not the right word for God's judgment against a whole people for their accumulated transgressions of the law. As I said, God's justice is harsh, and none of us is comfortable with it, but it IS justice and not murder. People who think they are more righteous than God are a sad lot. The very few contradictions are trivial and probably reconcilable. I have never ever said I read the Bible "literally." The word "inspire" means "God breathed" which is a clear statement of God's authorship.God says killing the INNOCENT is wrong, but the death penalty is justice. And that means in some cases judgment against a whole community. And none of this opposes Jesus. You have a phony Jesus. Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 in the synagogue to announce His Messiahship, all about how He came to comfort and save, but He specifically left off the last line which says one of the roles of the Messiah is "vengeance." He left it off because that isn't why He came the first time but it will be His task when He comes the second time.God specifically said that a person who takes the life of another person is to lose his own life: If it bothers you that we stay home while the state does the deed out of our sight, we could always bring back public stoning. I think the main idea of that was that the whole community be involved in the act of justice. The "unclean" thing would be refusing to put to death someone who really deserves it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I won't even defend myself. I knew the humorless lefties here would have to have some kind of fit of accusatory indignation. It's all they know how to do. Hey, put it in your signature so the whole leftie crew can get their daily rush of twisted moral indignation.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.