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Author | Topic: Impossible evolution of new beneficial proteins | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CreationMan Inactive Member |
Percy, My apology for the "name calling" I didn't mean it in that light, I meant to refer to the mental capacity of the writers. However, after reading the post I realized it might be taken the wrong way. I wish there was a way to edit what has been posted.
"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
Look why is this so hard?
When a gene is duplicated, that technically "increases" the amount of information. And when there is a frameshift mutation, this is "new" information. BUT... Never will you ever see a gene that codes for reptile scales, undergo a mutation or mutations (even over time) that changes that reptile scale information (code) to bird feather information (code). I have seen no demonstration of this. Does this clarify the point??? "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
Look why is this so hard?
When a gene is duplicated, that technically "increases" the amount of information. And when there is a frameshift mutation, this is "new" information. BUT... Never will you ever see a gene that codes for reptile scales, undergo a mutation or mutations (even over time) that changes that reptile scale information (code) to bird feather information (code). I have seen no demonstration of this. Does this clarify the point??? "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 764 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Your little tribe which codes for multiple forms of hemoglobin has the same or even possibly less information.
So being able to make two different proteins, where you could only make one before the mutation, is a decrease in information.Just because you have a new function in phenotype, doesn't necassarily mean you have to have an increase of new info in the genotype. Go take a bio 101 class for petes sake and stop waisting my time. Right. Under what definition of "information?"
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Sylas Member (Idle past 5290 days) Posts: 766 From: Newcastle, Australia Joined: |
CreationMan writes:
For your information....definitions are very important. If we are going to discuss something we need to understand what it means. Evoluton can mean a lot of different things depending on context. Frankly I don't care if you or anyone else agrees with me. I don't believe in green cats, if you disagree with me you just show your ignorance. It would help if you could clarify to whom you are responding, and engage some of the specific points which have been raised by various contributors. Definitions certainly are important. Can you give a definition of "information" which you were using when you refer to no mutations yielding new information? This was in Post 13 of this thread, and I responded to that with some corrections in Post 25.
You can't show me one example of mIcro-evolution lead to mAcro-evolution. Want to know why? BECAUSE IT'S BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Actually, it is entirely possible. In fact, what could prevent it? Microevolution is the small scale evolutionary change from generation to generation. Over many generations, change accumulates. Macroevolution is evolution above the taxonomic level of species. It is concerned with how diversity in living forms accumulates and diverges. A curious phenomenon in recent time is an increasing acceptance by creationists that speciation can occur rapidly. Indeed, this is absolutely required to account for the enormous diversity in living forms to arise since all the ark. It gets worse than this; to address diversity many creationists are reduced to denying the bible (which speaks of all animal life being extinguished: Genesis 7:23) and proposing various animal survivors on "floating mats" and other such inventions. I do not know if you use such models; but if you want to keep up with what creationists are proposing you need to be aware that they invoke massive amounts of macroevolutionary change (as the term macroevolution is used in biology; change above the level of species); far more than evolutionists.
If a pig accumulates tons of mutations eventually it's going to develop a disease and die. True I did say that mutations CAN be beneficial, but I also said that they are RARE. Mutations are rare. they occur about one in in every 10^7 copy of a DNA molecule. That is rare...the chance of that mutation being beneficial is even more rare. You need to be aware that mutations do not accumulate in one individual; but over a lineage. For example, you yourself, based on observed levels of mutations, probably have well over 60 new mutations not present in your parents. These will be passed on to your children, and they will add a futher 60 to 100 mutations or so; and so on as time passes. The accumulation of mutations is known; it occurs at rates consistent with the observed amounts of genetic differences between us and closely related primates, like the chimpanzees, and the amount of time since we shared a common ancestor. Macroevolution is pretty much inevitable under such circumstances. Of course, it is unusual to observe dramatic morphological change in a short period; but there are certainly observed changes which are classified as macroevolution. Examples include the development of maize, and evolution of mice on the island of Madeira; both of these over several hundred years. See, "Rapid chromosomal evolution in island mice", by J Britton-Davidian et. al., in Nature. 2000 Jan 13;403(6766):158.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/... {Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus} and the less technical description at Island mice may evolve faster: From one species to six, at the Genome News Network. Cheers -- cjhs [This message has been edited by Sylas aka cjhs, 02-12-2004]
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 764 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Never will you ever see a gene that codes for reptile scales, undergo a mutation or mutations (even over time) that changes that reptile scale information (code) to bird feather information (code). I have seen no demonstration of this. Where did I see that.....there is a breed of chicken that has feathers down its legs where most chickens have scales (scutes, actually). Darwin's Terrier, do you know something about that? I'll be back... heck, I might even find a reference to this - scales to feathers...it can't be done, except when chickens and such do it.... Added in edit: start here -Dinosauria On-Line [This message has been edited by Coragyps, 02-11-2004]
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Sylas Member (Idle past 5290 days) Posts: 766 From: Newcastle, Australia Joined: |
CreationMan: writes: Look why is this so hard?When a gene is duplicated, that technically "increases" the amount of information. And when there is a frameshift mutation, this is "new" information. It's not hard at all. You have just learned something, for which sincere congratulations. Mutations can give new information, after all.
BUT... Never will you ever see a gene that codes for reptile scales, undergo a mutation or mutations (even over time) that changes that reptile scale information (code) to bird feather information (code). I have seen no demonstration of this. No problem. This is a good place to ask. This transformation is documented in Requirement for BMP Signaling in Interdigital Apoptosis and Scale Formation, by Hongyan Zou and Lee Niswander, in Science Volume 272, Number 5262, Issue of 3 May 1996, pp. 738-741. The abstract is as follows (and look for the phrase I put in bold):
Interdigital cell death leads to regression of soft tissue between embryonic digits in many vertebrates. Although the signals that regulate interdigital apoptosis are not known, BMPssignaling molecules of the transforming growth factor- superfamilyare expressed interdigitally. A dominant negative type I BMP receptor (dnBMPR-IB) was used here to block BMP signaling. Expression of dnBMPR in chicken embryonic hind limbs greatly reduced interdigital apoptosis and resulted in webbed feet. In addition, scales were transformed into feathers. The similarity of the webbing to webbed duck feet led to studies that indicate that BMPs are not expressed in the duck interdigit. These results indicate BMP signaling actively mediates cell death in the embryonic limb. This is, of course, because chickens already have the long evolutionary history for development of feathers; you won't get feathers on a snake by a single mutation. But the mutation to make scales into feathers is a good demonstration of just how closely related feathers and scales really are. Cheers -- cjhs PS. Added in edit. (You can edit posts, CreationMan; look for the edit button at the bottom of posts.) A comprehensive and detailed discussion by Richard Prum (Uni of Kansas) is available at The Evolutionary Origin and Diversification of Feathers. It has a wealth of detail, and includes a brief mention of the work of Zou and Niswander, with some useful cautions. Prum may be known to those following the BAD/BAND dispute. Prum is a colleage of Larry Martin; though they are in robust disagreement. [This message has been edited by cjhs, 02-11-2004]
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Skeptick Inactive Member |
...and evolution of mice on the island of Madeira...
What kind of creatures did these mice evolve into?
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
The topic is beneficial proteins.
Your question is off topic. You should be asking about the nature of the genetic changes and the resulting phenotype.
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Sylas Member (Idle past 5290 days) Posts: 766 From: Newcastle, Australia Joined: |
Skeptick writes:
What kind of creatures did these mice evolve into? A new kind of mouse, of course. That is how evolution works. It is a process of divergence of existing forms into a range of new forms. This is often not understood by critics of evolutionary biology, who ask for something like a cat evolving into a dog, or a mouse into a pig. In fact, evolution says this will never happen. What happens instead is that cats get more diverse over time. They are all still cats, but they can be described also as what species of cat: puma, tiger, ocelot, jaguar, lynx, etc. As time goes on, cats might either die out, or become still more diverse. Most likely, it will be a combination; some species or families of cats will die out, others with continue to live and diversify. We can observe just this process of diversification in mice on Madeira. Macroevolution is about this level of change; but it still arises by the accumulation of genetic change in diverging lineages. The mice on Madeira are, I believe, still described as "Mus musculus domesticus"; but they have a distinct karyotype; with fewer chromosomes than the normal mouse species. See House mice on the island of Madeira, which is within a page which explain more about speciation for you. It is interesting that a reduced number of chromosomes in the six new species on Madeira arose by a fusion of chromosomes appearing in the parent species. A similar event has occurred in human ancestry. Humans have one less chromosome pair than the great apes, and it is immediately clear which two chromosomes in apes correspond to the single fused human chromosome. See Comparison of the Human and Great Ape Chromosomes as Evidence for Common Ancestry. Cheers -- Sylas PS. (Added in edit.) I think this was a good and important question by Skeptick; though AdminNosy is right that it was technically off topic for the thread. I think we have established already that new beneficial proteins can arise by evolution. The mouse example serves to show that macroevolution can occur without a need for new proteins to be involved. [This message has been edited by Sylas aka cjhs, 02-12-2004]
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Skeptick Inactive Member |
Your question is off topic.
My humblest apologies. I must have failed to properly understand forum rules. I'll be more diligent in the future, but I'm not as smart as everyone else here, so I'll need to try a little harder. The topic of mice was brought up as significant piece of information for this topic (see post 35), complete with a link to reference the details. I was under the mistaken impression that I could actually ask a question about the information, which was brought up by a more learned member, and I felt compelled to ask a question about it so we could delve deeper into this topic. Was it I who was off topic, or "Sylas aks cjhs", or both of us? Just wondering, since your pleasant reminder was directed toward my post. Would post #40 of this thread also be considered off topic? Perhaps more of us are confused with this forum rule. Thank you for your kind assistance.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Well, there has been a bit of an increased push to stay on topic.
The question I suggested looks like it would have, indeed, been relevant since the mice my not have anything to do with proteins. So you could have asked about that and found them to be irrelevant. (and off topic).
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
"A new kind of mouse, of course. That is how evolution works. It is a process of divergence of existing forms into a range of new forms."
Biologically speaking that is not evolution. If you start with a mouse and you finish wth a mouse, that's not evolution, that's just mice. What you described was MICRO-evolution, we except that, that's not a problem. But you want us to except (on faith) that the observable MICRO leads ----> To the UNOBSERVABLE MACRO. As a biologist who starts his hypotheses with observation, I can't except that. "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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CreationMan Inactive Member |
Did you happen to notice what animal was being discussed?
A CHICKEN!!! Do you realize what two kinds of genes, chicken DNA codes for? FEATHERS AND SCALES Of course scales can be "changed into feathers" when the information for feathers is already present in the Genome!That's baby biology. Show me a Snake or Lizard (with no info for feathers) change it's scales into feathers, IT CAN'T!! Why? Because the information for feathers cannot spontaneously generate in a genome which codes exclusively for scales. "The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" Creation Man
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: If you start with a mammal, you finish with a mammal.If you start with a chordate, you finish with a chordate. If you start with a eukaryote, you finish with a eukaryote. At one point do you draw the line. Also, how would you classify fossils that are intermediate between reptiles and mammals? This is important. Information increases are incremental, not wholesale insertions of new code. You have to show how incremental changes in the genome will not accumulate to such a piont that the new species will not differ greatly from the parent stock. You have yet to show how accumulation is impossible. [This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 02-12-2004]
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