Impossible evolution of new beneficial proteins

Ok you guys are toally missing the point. Even my creationist brother whom I agree with is missing it. Can mutations be beneficial? YES!! It is rare but it can happen. Wingless beetles on the Galapagos Islands have shown that. But the question is:Have there ever been mutations shown to INCREASE NEW information in the genes. I.E., Information causing a reptile arm to turn into a bird wing. Yes if you have a duplication mutation which causes an extra finger to be expressed in the phenotype there is an increase of info, but it is NOT NEW info. There is NO scientific evidence to show that new information has arisen by mutaions in a genome. And new information cannot arise out of nowhere, (that's a scientific law) That shows that macro-evolution is IMPOSSIBLE.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Mario (Creation Man)

It is a scientific fact that information can only arise from information and ultimately from a teleonomic (intelligent) source. No where has matter ever been observed to give rise to information.INFORMATION CAN ONLY ARISE FROM INFORMATION AND ULTIMATELY FROM A TELEONOMIC SOURCE.If you disagree provide me with a scientific example of the opposite happening. You can't, and you won't find one either. So happy hunting.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

And BTW MUTATIONS HAVE NEVER BEEN OBSERVED YEILDING NEW INFORMATION.Evolutionary change would require the addition of new information, which is not a feature of the sort of changes one sees in bacteria. Even when a bacterium develops resistance where there previously was none in the population, by mutation (a random copying mistake which changes the genetic information), the change still represents a loss of information. This sounds counterintuitive, but it’s important to recognize that enzymes are usually tuned very precisely to only one type of molecule. Mutations reduce specificity. Hence the enzyme is less effective in its primary function, but it is able to break down other molecules too. In no case have bacteria been observed to become resistant through a gain of new information, i.e., the emergence of a completely new gene that produces a completely new enzyme.Dr. Lee Spetner (biochemist) said that all point mutations studied on the molecular level tend to REDUCE the amount of information. Not increase it.Point stated.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

Looks like we have a couple of idiots on a forum.What is an information generator using to generate information? Code...where is the code coming from...in an intelligent agent. Thank you for verifying my argument.New Information on the molecular level looks like information that is not present anywhere else in the genome of that organism. The information must come from outside the genome naturally (from another organism). If you mate a reptile and a bird their info won't mix because they are so different genetically. Duh!And BTW the example you gave didn't show how new info could arise. But merely how info can be translocated. AAANT WRONG Try again.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

Your little tribe which codes for multiple forms of hemoglobin has the same or even possibly less information.Just because you have a new function in phenotype, doesn't necassarily mean you have to have an increase of new info in the genotype. Go take a bio 101 class for petes sake and stop waisting my time.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

In order for evolution to work (reptile arm to bird wing) you need the info from the bird wing to be introduced to the reptile arm.THAT'S WHY EVOLUTION NEEDS NEW INFO.Percy,
Again you are showing increase in info in the genes. I need to see NEW info from another organism that is not related. That can't happen biologically, it's impossible.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

For your information....definitions are very important. If we are going to discuss something we need to understand what it means. Evoluton can mean a lot of different things depending on context.Frankly I don't care if you or anyone else agrees with me. I don't believe in green cats, if you disagree with me you just show your ignorance.You can't show me one example of mIcro-evolution lead to mAcro-evolution. Want to know why?BECAUSE IT'S BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.If a pig accumulates tons of mutations eventually it's going to develop a disease and die. True I did say that mutations CAN be beneficial, but I also said that they are RARE. Mutations are rare. they occur about one in in every 10^7 copy of a DNA molecule. That is rare...the chance of that mutation being beneficial is even more rare.In theory it would take several thousand related mutations to get a reptile arm to function as a bird wing. Suddenly it's not 10^7 but now it's 10^3000 you odds ain't look so good buddy. And the odds of any of those mutations being beneficial is even less.Even if by majic someone the information for wings appeared in the genes of a pig, it is more than likely (from a biological stand point) that they would not even be expressed in the Phenotype, and if they were (by some astronomically large number of chance) they would (judging from other instances in biology) be severly degredading to the organism (namely the pig).Macro-evolution will be true the day pigs can fly.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

Percy, My apology for the "name calling" I didn't mean it in that light, I meant to refer to the mental capacity of the writers. However, after reading the post I realized it might be taken the wrong way. I wish there was a way to edit what has been posted.

Percy, My apology for the "name calling" I didn't mean it in that light, I meant to refer to the mental capacity of the writers. However, after reading the post I realized it might be taken the wrong way. I wish there was a way to edit what has been posted.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

Look why is this so hard?When a gene is duplicated, that technically "increases" the amount of information. And when there is a frameshift mutation, this is "new" information.BUT...Never will you ever see a gene that codes for reptile scales, undergo a mutation or mutations (even over time) that changes that reptile scale information (code) to bird feather information (code). I have seen no demonstration of this.Does this clarify the point???

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

Look why is this so hard?
When a gene is duplicated, that technically "increases" the amount of information. And when there is a frameshift mutation, this is "new" information.BUT...Never will you ever see a gene that codes for reptile scales, undergo a mutation or mutations (even over time) that changes that reptile scale information (code) to bird feather information (code). I have seen no demonstration of this.Does this clarify the point???

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

"A new kind of mouse, of course. That is how evolution works. It is a process of divergence of existing forms into a range of new forms."Biologically speaking that is not evolution. If you start with a mouse and you finish wth a mouse, that's not evolution, that's just mice.What you described was MICRO-evolution, we except that, that's not a problem. But you want us to except (on faith) that the observable MICRO leads ----> To the UNOBSERVABLE MACRO.As a biologist who starts his hypotheses with observation, I can't except that.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

Did you happen to notice what animal was being discussed?A CHICKEN!!!Do you realize what two kinds of genes, chicken DNA codes for?FEATHERS AND SCALESOf course scales can be "changed into feathers" when the information for feathers is already present in the Genome!
That's baby biology.Show me a Snake or Lizard (with no info for feathers) change it's scales into feathers, IT CAN'T!! Why? Because the information for feathers cannot spontaneously generate in a genome which codes exclusively for scales.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

Thank you for pointing that out.I am aware that they do not accumulate in an induvidual. I was giving a simplistic demonstration. To clarify= The more mutations that accumulate, the more it produces a selective DISadvantage.I believe the "creationists" you are refering to are progressive creationsists and even Theistic evolutionists. They compromise the bibilical teachings to fit their beliefs. I am fully informed of their positions and have no desire to rabbit trail down them.Concerning MACRO-Evo you said, "Actually, it is entirely possible. In fact, what could prevent it? Microevolution is the small scale evolutionary change from generation to generation. Over many generations, change accumulates."Change does accumulate over generations, actually it's just speciation. Do you know how much variablity is in the human genome? There are 10^80 known atoms in the whole universe. If you took any two people, a man and a woman, and they had children, the chance of
that couple having two children that looked alike would be 10^2017. That is a lot of diversity. So what's the point.Well let's say we had 10^2017 polar molecules in a jar. We mix these POLAR molecules up and they can be arranged in lots of different ways. Creating Isomers of each other and so on. Now will one or more of those POLAR molecules over time change and become NONpolar? NOPE. Why? (Answer is too long to explain here).If you have a cake made from eggs, oil, flour and water, and you mix all these ingredients in a bowl. no matter how long you wait, chocolate won't gradually appear. In fact the longer you wait the less likely it will be a cake and will eventually be a mush of nothing.APPLICATION: (this is the point)Let's say those examples are the genome. The info in the genome will NOT gradually change over some LOOOOOOOOONG period of time into what it needs. The longer the time the (and this is the key) WORSE it's going to get.PS How do you put someone elses quote in those little blue boxes in your reply?[This message has been edited by CreationMan, 02-12-2004]

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man

I have not seen any fossils that are intermediate between reptiles and mammals. Perhaps you could suggest a few?As far as acuumulating mutations....see my last post.

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"The Fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"Creation Man