Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?

If so, it will have to come out of everyone's hide in proportion to what they can afford to spend. We are not gonna simply soak the middle class to clean it up for everyone.Enough squabbling, though. How much do you think it will cost? Faith mentions the idea that the Asian Nations are polluting now more than the US is. Why cant they be made to pay based on their proportionate contribution to the problem? The US has already spent a lot of money in order to regulate the environmental footprint from its industrial base. Granted the Trump administration seeks to revisit fossil fuel production from domestic oil, natural gas, and coal...which will increase the US responsibility...and we can own up to our part. What we won't stand for is to fall back into the historical precedent of the US cleaning up 75% of the planet's mess by ourselves. The bill will get paid proportionately to each countries current contribution to the problem and not by one aging superpower who is perceived as responsible for everything.

Some Basics.The Bill is far beyond the human races ability to pay if it is not addressed soon. And actually, the Asian Nations have reduced their pollution and are continuing to do so but it would be centuries before the Asian Nation caught up with the damage that the US and Europe already did.The fact that we committed the destruction way before the Asian Nations does not removed our responsibility for all the damage we have done of the last two centuries.Saying "Billy's doing it now" is not an excuse for "I did it in the past".AbE:And get this straight Phat. The pain will not be shared equally. The US in particular will suffer far more than most other countries simply because we are among the most industrialized, have no concept of how to live without our Smart Phones, let our infrastructure decay and have already destroyed much of essential resources that would help mitigate the pain.In addition, it will be the poor and middle class in the US who will bear all of the pain, not the rich.Edited by jar, : see AbEEdited by jar, : applin spallin

Thank you for posting that. It does leave me in the position of having to figure out percentages of percentages of percentages, wondering which percentage of which gas contributes what percentage of the problem, wondering what a "sink" is and why it doesn't work to remove the extra amounts of gasses and so on. Unless you want to address these questions I do plan to keep looking into all this so maybe they will get answered anyway.And, again, I know you think all this science is really very solid, and perhaps it is while I'm just not able to follow it well enough to recognize it, but I still have the impression that there are so many variables there is no way anyone could be sure about what it's all doing or is going to do.And again, the way this all gets discussed continues to be disturbing. Trump is an evil person for wanting to improve our economy, make us independent of Saudi oil (which will go on polluting the atmosphere in any case). Exact HONESTLY CALCULATED percentages of the contribution to the problem from any of the changes he's made, in comparison with HONEST CALCULATIONS of the input from other nations, would help.And the idea that all this gets legislated no matter what the public thinks is very worrying. China treats its people that way, but we shouldn't. Take away jobs and production by legislation on the basis of SOMEBODY's calculations that we can't share in and treat us like idiots for wanting our nation to continue to function independently of enemy nations?. This is so political rather than scientific why can't you all appreciate the position we're in?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I will agree with you there. Though a political moderate and no big fan of Trump, I can see the overall argument as to where this conversation is headed. jar is usually rather critical of the US past policies in general, while entirely too kind to the rest of the world. He used to always disagree with me regarding the broken treaties which the US made with the Indians back two centuries ago and how if it were him, the honor of restoring those treaties and giving the land back to the Indians (even at this 21st-century point in time) would be the honorable thing to do. The whole idea annoye me chiefly because I refused to take responsibility for the behavior of my ancestors. This whole Clean Up The Planet mess falls in the same category. jar claims that the US and the Western nations did most of the damage. Thus the US middle class alone needs to clean up the planet because our country is supposedly still rich. Nevermind that Japan is near our standard of living. Nevermind that China is rapidly getting there and is now a major polluter. In fact, I predict that China will ultimately cause more damage to the planet than the US ever did, due to their 1 billion people population. So what do you think, Faith? Should the bill be spread out over humanity (those who can afford it) or should it just fall on the lap of the USA?On a side note, hot button issues such as these are prophecied to occur. Critics will scoff at the whole idea that we are in the last days and that we are approaching a major series of wars, famines, and gloom & doom judgment.My question to you personally is this:
How on the one hand you defend US policies and the rights to do business successfully with the idea and belief in a Rapture of the Church? Don't you realize that if belief in this Rapture is in any way true, the people who go won't just go simply because they believe in Jesus Christ and trust Him? They will be judged based on their actions. It won't matter whether Barack Obama or Donald Trump was the better man with a better ideology. All that will matter is what the people individually and collectively chose to do and the impact upon humanity.

Have you ever read the Bible, jar? Don't you know that many of the Biblical Christians see the US in prophecy, under the title of Mystery Babylon The Great? Judgment ultimately falls on Mystery Babylon.

quote:

---

1. End-times Babylon is a great nation that receives judgment for its many sins.

​

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Rev. 18:2)

​

2. This nation is a superpower and has world dominance and importance. It has also spread its corruption to the world.

​

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her. (Rev. 18:3) (Think of all the deals the US has made with dictators at the expense of the common people)

​

3. The merchants of the world are made rich through trading with this nation. This nation consumes huge amounts of goods.

​

And the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Rev. 18:3)

​

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. (Rev. 18:11—13)

​

4. This nation is proud and arrogant and considers herself to be invincible and the greatest nation on earth.
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so
much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit
a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (Rev. 18:7)(and isn't this the current attitude of many people? Are today's modern conservatives like this? They want to build walls and increase the power of the military...perceiving the enemy to be among the dreaded globalists and Leftists out there waiting to bring the country down. And yet ironically, most liberals see our only solution for the future to be cooperation with the rest of the world.)

​

5. This nation is typified by an extravagant lifestyle.
And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine
linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious
stones, and pearls! (Rev. 18:16)

​

6. Other nations are controlled by her and given great riches by her.
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and
lived deliciously with her. (Rev. 18:9)
7. This nation is a coastal nation, with deepwater ports and much
international trade.
And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors,
and as many as trade by sea stood afar off. (Rev. 18:17)

​

8. This nation has defenses in the heavens.
Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she
should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers
come unto her, saith the Lord. (Jer. 51:53)

---

The irony is deep. The conservatives want a strong country. They elected the current president due to populist sentiment. The Left ideology also predicts that the planet itself is in the "last days" due to global warming and climate change. Their solution is for the world to unite in order to solve these problems.The evangelical conservatives see this as a one-world government and many see scripture warning that antichrist will appear during such times.So there we have it. The stage is set. Either the US middle class pays the bill and helps the planet sacrificially giving up nearly all we have to do so...or, according to jar, the rest of the world won't pay. Yet we all go down with the ship. Comments?

Carbon works in a cycle just like the water cycle. The world releases carbon into the atmosphere and absorbs it back out just to release more in a continuous loop. But instead of a few weeks like in the water cycle the carbon cycle takes centuries+.A carbon sink is a mechanism that absorbs atmospheric carbon. Trees, plants, oceans, etc. The various sinks *do* absorb all the carbon they can but when we keep cutting and burning the forests, paving over the grasslands and polluting the oceans we have limited the absorbing capacity to well below the huge amounts of carbon we add to the system each year.Planting a billion trees would help by offsetting the billions upon billions of trees being burned each year but not by much since those new trees have yet to grow and become effective sinks while we continue destroying even more mature trees. It takes many hundred millennia to grow an effective forest but, as we can see today in Brazil, just a few months to destroy one. The Brazilians are not just destroying one of our largest and most effective carbon sinks they are adding millions of tons of carbon into the atmosphere in the process.The oceans are by far the biggest most effective carbon sinks and we’ve polluted and choked them with plastics, garbage and chemicals so much the ocean’s capacity to absorbed any more carbon is well short of the amounts we are continuing to pump out. As the carbon cycle continues the carbon being absorbed by the oceans is warmer due to greenhouse warming of the carbon in the atmosphere and so the oceans are heating up bigtime. That thermal load leads to thermal expansion and glacier melt which is sea level rise. Another 2 feet by the end of this century no matter what we do from now til then.And warmer oceans means bigger more powerful storms and altered rain and wind patterns. Some temperate zones become deserts and dust bowls while other areas have increasing heavy rains which means increasing floods in the continents. To an absolute value with absolute precision? No. The system is far too complex for the kind of spot-on to the 5th decimal point precision a lot of the deniers are demanding. But the overall picture is settled and only those with ulterior motives deny it.We’re fucked already and things after this century++ are going to get worse if we don’t stop today. This disaster is front-loaded for the next 100 years+ and will not be abated. After that depends on what we do now, today. I agree. Not going to happen. Are his disastrous policies responsible for a 5% increase or a 7.98427% increase in the damage the world will feel in 2150 and beyond? Can’t say. What we can say is that *ANY* increase in carbon emissions will raise temperatures and sea levels even more than the disastrous levels already front-loaded into the system and they will do so by a more disastrous degree in the future than what would have been had he done nothing at all.We all are continuing to add to the problem and Trump’s embrace of Big Carbon will make things even worse still. And for what? Political favor and money. Nice reasons to kill a species. What crap is this?We elect the people that decide what to do. And for the last 50+ years they have done nothing to help the issue because we didn’t want them to!.And right now, at least to some small degree, some are beginning to understand what the science has been saying these last 5 decades. We have already fucked the future of our species and are making things even worse every day.*We*, the public, will determine what legislation gets implemented. I fear Big Carbon and the mega rich will so influence the public that we will end up doing nothing again as usual. Burn the future of our children, the future of our species. We got ours and we don’t care!Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This is what I fear the evangelical base will think. They will believe that Jesus will come and rescue them and that only the godless people will get left behind. Personally, I believe that A just and loving God wouldn't simply whisk a bunch of evangelicals into the night sky simply because there was too much hard work left to clean up the place. My initial argument with jar was about who was gonna get stuck with the bill. If what he claims is true and it is the US Middle class, then I predict that the populists will rise yet again and start a war. Which won't help the carbon footprint either.I also predict that these evangelical populists will be hated by all of the rest of the rational people...and that the world will unite without them.The only question in my mind is whether or not some of us will volunteer to help clean up and in so doing show the real love that we believe God has for *all* of us or whether we will hide behind gated communities, hostile churches, and political ideologies and give the rest of the world a legitimate reason to hate us.I think God wants One people to come out of all of this. They won't be religious in the traditional sense. But they will show love towards others...

Or the US Middle Class pulls it's collective head out of its Collective Asses and elects representatives who will throw the Evangelicals on the Trash Heap of History and pass policies, processes, procedures, models and methods that while painful are not fatal.It is not to late to try to mitigate the worst of the pain and maybe, just maybe keep developed humanity in existence as more than simply servants to the rich and powerful.

Ironically, flood waters might help you to get a grasp on what is happening. If there is a torrential downpour it can swamp the ability of natural mechanisms to get rid of the water, resulting in a lot of standing water (i.e. flood). The same is happening with carbon dioxide. There are natural processes that can pull carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, but they aren't able to keep up with the amount we are dumping into the atmosphere.You won't accept all of the dates on this graph, but if you cram the entire history of atmospheric carbon dioxide into a short time period it can still show you how far above natural levels of carbon dioxide we currently are: During interglacial periods, which we are currently in, the natural concentration for carbon dioxide is ~280 ppm. We are currently over 400 ppm. There is zero doubt that humans are the cause of this.How much of an impact has this carbon dioxide made? These are climate models. The green line represents the predicted temperatures if we take increased carbon dioxide out of the model. The blue line represents the prediction of climate models if we include all of the carbon dioxide humans have put in the atmosphere. The black line is the observed temperatures. The difference between the black line and the green line is the amount of warming humans have caused. We know these models are reliable because the green line tracks with the black line before humans significantly increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. IOW, both models accurately predicted past temperatures, so that gives us confidence in them. You are aware that the US Constitution allows elected officials to make laws, right?

Would you give up all that you had to help the rest? Pensions, houses, most of your guns? This task is gonna take everything everyone has. And why should the rich get off the hook?AddByEdit: Add to that the firm position that they may give much of what they have, but not due to the threat of legislation. If you want a civil war, elect a government that *makes* everyone give all that they have and see where that gets you.Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

You need to stop listening to the conmen.It WILL take everything unless the US Middle Class pulls it's collective head out of its collective asses and does what is needed.The Auto Companies have already agreed that it is possible to double the US vehicle fuel economy over the next twenty years. That would make a significant effect without taking your pension.Changing from incandescent and florescent lighting to LED lighting can make a significant improvement and save money over the next twenty years.Currently we waste energy and water at an alarming and increasing rate because we have allowed the distribution systems to deteriorate. Redirecting funds from utterly stupid policies like some border wall would allow use to repair critical infrastructure over the next twenty years.Fixing our infrastructure will provide jobs to make sure lots more folk have a home and pension.A single bill in Congress removing the salary cap on Social Security Taxes would provide assurance that over the next century the safety net will continue to be available.These might be painful but not fatal.And the only step need is for the US Middle Class to simply go to the polls and vote every single person that believes in a Young Earth, End Times, the Biblical Flood or the Jesus will return during the time humans exist on this earth out of office.Throw them away.Sure, the medicine may taste bad and the shot might hurt but the alternative is fatal.

But you still have the voting block. I edited what I said above, which you replied to. It is one thing to give up much of what you have for the common good. It is quite another to be made to do so.In order to avoid a civil war, our leaders will need the wisdom of Solomon.

Bullshit.The leaders are irrelevant Phat.It is the Middle Class that actually has the power. It is the Middle Class that will determine if we decide to destroy society or save it.The Middle Class is who gets to vote.

How high of a tax rate would it take to fix the problem? I listen to all sides. And conmen come from all parties and all ideologies. I am a moderate for a reason...no ideology will prevail.Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Just like Jesus is irrelevant to the Christians, jar?
Just as GOD is unknowable and thus irrelevant to the Jews? (and the rest of us, all now chosen and charged according to your belief?)
You believe that we are *all* chosen and charged to do our best.But in this case, you are wrong. The leader is relevant. Try getting them to throw their religion away. It won't ever work.Hopefully we wont fiddle while the planet burns.The rapture (known by jar as the rupture) wont bail us out either.