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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 406 of 762 (863843)
10-01-2019 4:40 PM


The Sky is Falling - Literally
One of the major problems with society, besides H. sapiens being generally stupid, is that societies are generally stupid. When a problem isn’t hitting us in the nose right now we don’t see it. We have a tendency to ignore not-so-pesky little problems because we have other things like football scores and dinner on our little minds. And the distractions put in front of us by the elite and special interests are effective at keeping us placated. As long as we perceive our immediate needs as being met and we have pleasant distractions to keep us occupied the problems of the future are well in the future which is not right now so, hey, there’s time to think about them later.
In the case of climate change we are just now beginning to see the effects that have been building up over the last 100++ years but there are forces putting up white noise and hoping most of us won’t look too hard and remain distracted and placated a while longer so they can grow their bottom line bigger before anyone notices.
But climate change is a front-loaded problem of 100++ years duration. Right now we are in for 100++ years of growing climate disasters that cannot be stopped no matter what we do. That means that in 100++ years when enough people become concerned about what’s hitting them in the nose right then there is yet another 100++ years of even bigger worser problems already in the pipeline coming their way that cannot be stopped.
So, yeah, when things get so bad that populations are dying, societies are coming apart and society en mass, decides doing something drastic is really needed well they are in for yet another hundred++ years of ever growing disaster before whatever they decide to do begins to have any effect. And that effect will not stop or reverse the ever faster string of disasters plaguing the planet but may begin to slow it down. Maybe.
There usually is a tipping point to these things past which you have lost no matter what you do. We don’t know where that point is, and probably will not know even when we’re well past it.
So, now, today, right here in 2019, no matter what we decide to do or when we decide to do it the environment will have been tragically changed forever never to go back to the pleasant comfortable climate we humans evolved to fit within. And if we pass an unseen tipping point on our way through the present couple of centuries of coming climate disaster then premature extinction will be our legacy.
Just in case anyone was wondering what all this impatience in climate change hub-bub was all about.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 5:00 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2587
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 407 of 762 (863844)
10-01-2019 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Phat
10-01-2019 4:23 PM


Re: The Irony
Thugpreacha asks:
How high of a tax rate would it take to fix the problem?
Probably starting too high for your income. See Elizabeth Warrens Wealth Tax or Bernie's.
If you make 50 millions, you don't have any sympathy from me.
Edited by xongsmith, : typo

"I'd rather be an American than a Trump Supporter."
- xongsmith, 5.7d

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 Message 404 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 4:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 408 of 762 (863845)
10-01-2019 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Phat
10-01-2019 4:23 PM


Re: The Irony
Phat writes:
How high of a tax rate would it take to fix the problem?
No one knows BUT it will take a lower tax today than tomorrow.
And it's not as much a matter of tax rate but rather tax source. For example simply removing the current limit of Social Security Taxes but keeping the rate the same would make a BIG difference.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 4:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 4:58 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 409 of 762 (863846)
10-01-2019 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
10-01-2019 4:29 PM


Re: The Irony
Who chooses the leaders Phat?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 4:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 4:54 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 410 of 762 (863847)
10-01-2019 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by jar
10-01-2019 4:47 PM


Re: The Irony
The people. But it gets complicated. The people are not well informed as a group. There is a basic division in US politics...nearly right down the middle. When a conservative leader gets voted in, 48% of the people disagree with that choice. When a democratic leader gets elected, 48% of the other side disagrees with that choice. Thus we have partisan politics always in play, with two or more different goals in mind and a stubborn refusal at compromise or consensus. Politicians are by nature short-sighted. They earn a living whether anything gets done or not. What we need is a visionary...a statesman who can inspire unity and action. What we also need is an educated populace who seeks to find answers that require sacrifice. The jury is out, however. People historically want short term solutions that benefit them rather than everyone else. When the political ideologies look across the aisle at their opponents, perhaps they need to include the interests of the vanquished 48% rather than simply the interests of the victorious 52%.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by jar, posted 10-01-2019 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by jar, posted 10-01-2019 5:01 PM Phat has replied
 Message 424 by Faith, posted 10-02-2019 12:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 411 of 762 (863848)
10-01-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by jar
10-01-2019 4:46 PM


Re: The Irony
And it's not as much a matter of tax rate but rather tax source. For example simply removing the current limit of Social Security Taxes but keeping the rate the same would make a BIG difference.
You know I perk up when you talk of social security. Were it not for that, all I have left to take care of me is GOD, and She may have other plans. The planet might come first.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by jar, posted 10-01-2019 4:46 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 412 of 762 (863849)
10-01-2019 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by AZPaul3
10-01-2019 4:40 PM


Re: The Sky is Falling - Literally
AZ writes:
We have a tendency to ignore not-so-pesky little problems because we have other things like football scores and dinner on our little minds. And the distractions put in front of us by the elite and special interests are effective at keeping us placated. As long as we perceive our immediate needs as being met and we have pleasant distractions to keep us occupied the problems of the future are well in the future which is not right now so, hey, there’s time to think about them later.
Well what do you know? We agree.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by AZPaul3, posted 10-01-2019 4:40 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 413 of 762 (863850)
10-01-2019 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Phat
10-01-2019 4:54 PM


Re: The Irony
So the problem is the people.
Got it.
They will get the world they want.
It really is that simple Phat.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 4:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 5:04 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18348
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 414 of 762 (863851)
10-01-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by jar
10-01-2019 5:01 PM


Re: The Irony
It is simple yet terrifying. The ones who now placidly believe that Jesus will return and rescue them will be terrified and angry...seeking others to blame. The nonbelievers will turn to science to help them, scared of death as much as everyone else. If people won't listen now, how will they listen then?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by jar, posted 10-01-2019 5:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by jar, posted 10-01-2019 5:21 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 415 of 762 (863852)
10-01-2019 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Phat
10-01-2019 5:04 PM


Re: The Irony
NMP Phat.
God sent Al Gore and Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter and Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders and literally thousands more who interpreted the dreams, read the writing on the wall and told the Pharaoh and the People that the Lean Years are coming.
Yet the people decided not to build the granaries, not to preserve the meat, not repair the walls, not to make ready the highways, not to store the oil.
The people will get what they wanted.
UNLESS, people like you stop considering both sides and simply throw those gods away, cast out the apologists, exercise your vote and inform the ill informed.
A still relevant Farewell

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 416 of 762 (863854)
10-01-2019 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Phat
10-01-2019 1:04 PM


My question to you personally is this:
How on the one hand you defend US policies and the rights to do business successfully with the idea and belief in a Rapture of the Church? Don't you realize that if belief in this Rapture is in any way true, the people who go won't just go simply because they believe in Jesus Christ and trust Him? They will be judged based on their actions. It won't matter whether Barack Obama or Donald Trump was the better man with a better ideology. All that will matter is what the people individually and collectively chose to do and the impact upon humanity.
You seem to be saying I'm doing the wrong thing and will have to pay for it? Of course I disagree, I think I'm on the right side of this. based on my understanding of the moment. If I change my mind then I will also change my attitude toward these problems.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Phat, posted 10-01-2019 1:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 417 of 762 (863855)
10-01-2019 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Taq
10-01-2019 3:53 PM


Re: Leaf decay huge percentage of CO2 in atmosphere
I hate to have to say so but I can't see your chart well enough to make sense of it. I can't see anything green on it either. And I don't trust such charts anyway. But I would like to see some trustworthy information about those particular relationships somehow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Taq, posted 10-01-2019 3:53 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 418 of 762 (863859)
10-02-2019 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by AZPaul3
10-01-2019 2:28 PM


Re: Leaf decay huge percentage of CO2 in atmosphere
This is so political rather than scientific why can't you all appreciate the position we're in?
Burn the future of our children, the future of our species. We got ours and we don’t care!
So much for empathy. I appreciate the science. I do not appreciate the Leftie accusation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by AZPaul3, posted 10-01-2019 2:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by AZPaul3, posted 10-02-2019 11:08 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 419 of 762 (863861)
10-02-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by AZPaul3
10-01-2019 2:28 PM


Re: Leaf decay huge percentage of CO2 in atmosphere
Thank you very much for the science, and for the explanation of "sink."
I think we should plant ten billion trees, and we can include fast-growing ones. And there's nothing wrong with planting other kinds of greenery while we're at it, that would put out oxygen a lot sooner than the growing forest would. But I know I'm nave.
But the overall picture is settled and only those with ulterior motives deny it.
The accusation of "ulterior motives" is offensive.
We’re fucked already and things after this century++ are going to get worse if we don’t stop today. This disaster is front-loaded for the next 100 years+ and will not be abated. After that depends on what we do now, today.
Throughout this post you refer to "we" which implies the US, especially since you make so much of Trump's actions. But this keeps hitting me as political mystification. I'm aware that the US has made big changes for the pollution problem over the years, it's not as if we've ignored it. I remember when my relatives in LA could no longer use their incinerators. After that the trash was hauled to the landfills, which you say is also contributing to the problem. And we've had smog reducing devices on our cars for forever. Meanwhile China is a gigantic polluter and does absolutely zero to fix the problem. And not just China but all of Asia and India and Pakistan etc etc etc. The whole western "First World" meaning the US, the UK, Australia, Europe, Canada etc. add up to about a billion and a half people, as comparied with the remaining six billion who are the big polluters, but somehow WE are always being targeted. If it weren't all Leftists demanding that WE change it might have a little more credibility.
Since all this is guestimation, I'd guestimate, even wiith Trump's restoration of oil and coal, that our share of the overall problem is probably about 5%, maybe 10%. Even if we brought all our industry and other sources of pollution to a screeching halt it would have just about no effect on the global warming problem but WE are the ones getting called names and accused and accused and accused. Which proves this is primarily a political manipulation. Primarily.
NOT THAT I'M SAYING I REJECT THE SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENTS OR THE NEED FOR INTERVENTION. I'M STILL WORKING ON IT. Between bouts of depression about it all anyway.
The oceans are by far the biggest most effective carbon sinks and we’ve polluted and choked them with plastics, garbage and chemicals so much the ocean’s capacity to absorbed any more carbon is well short of the amounts we are continuing to pump out.
Here's that "we" again. I posted the statistic above somewhere of 80% plastic pollution coming from Asia and 20% from the west. It's hard to lose the impression that for some reason this whole thing is about killing the west.
But I'll try not to get too paranoid and come back to the science as I can. Maybe more on this post later.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by AZPaul3, posted 10-01-2019 2:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by AZPaul3, posted 10-02-2019 12:12 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 420 of 762 (863862)
10-02-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Faith
10-02-2019 10:11 AM


Re: Leaf decay huge percentage of CO2 in atmosphere
I appreciate the science. I do not appreciate the Leftie accusation.
I don't appreciate the Alt-reich putting their politics above the survival of our species.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Faith, posted 10-02-2019 10:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Faith, posted 10-02-2019 11:16 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
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