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Author | Topic: Hitch is dead | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: As long as we are talking belief, the "lovely and kind God" is the Prince of this world--satan himself. It is he who is attempting to be an evil despot clouding human thinking and running an immoral enterprise. As long as the church takes a stand to oppose him, he will never win over the hearts and minds of a general population. It may well be that he tries to win you over not through religious traditions, but through what CS Lewis called "his neatest trick": Convincing you that neither he nor God exists. Devils and Satan, CS bleedin' Lewis and trickery. You couldn't make it up...
Tangle. How is life across the pond?
For me and mine, fine. Not so good for a lot of others. Still, the sun is shining and spring is springing.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Then how is it that we see demons getting cast out of people? Er, we don't see that - ever.
How is it that we ourselves become transformed through the renewing of our minds? That's just meaningless blather.
I already know your answer. If you do can you please stop coming out with this utter bollox.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: For you, God is hiding in your unbelief. The only reason He is hidden is that you created the shadows yourself. Have you been listening to the sermons of the ignorant again? This sort of archaic language isn't doing anything to help you. So what happened to freewill in heaven then?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: It all depends on the sort of god you're not believing in ... ! your lovely kind god - a very modern invention - doesn't sound so bad.Tangle writes: There is no evidence from philosophy, just argument and the arguments are both for and against with no possible way of resolv ing them. The problem here is that you saying that we can’t get absolute answers from philosophy and by extension theology. You are absolutely right of course. That is the problem that Christian fundamentalists have and where they get off track. They look to an inerrant Bible, (or something close to that) to provide absolute answers.It shouldn’t be understood that way and that is obvious because of not only minor inconsistencies but because of major contradictions such as writing that Yahweh commands genocide and public stoning and then we are told that we are to love our enemy and be merciful, forgiving and loving. I would agree with Paul when he writes that the authors were inspired by God to write what they did, but that doesn’t mean that their motivations for what they wrote were of God. People since the writing of the Bible are still being inspired to record their insights and understandings both philosophical and theological. I would also add that our scientists are inspired in what they do and what they learn can also give insights into what God has done and maybe even give us clues as to what lies ahead and how we can deal with it. For example the first hospitals had Christian roots and then through science we have modern medicine. So, it isn’t that a lovely kind god is a modern invention. That god was always there but the problem was people. Religion institutions are created by people around their religious beliefs and ultimately they usually go off the rails out of the lust for power and influence. When people get to that point of influence in the institutions they are expected to come up with absolute answers and so they do. The big thing that we can learn from philosophy and theology is that in one thing there is consistency. All major religions and something that just about everyone knows deep down is true, is the Golden Rule.
quote:In the Bible in addition to the quote from Judaism there is this quote from Leviticus 19. quote:The Golden Rule was present in Judaism right from the beginning and the Jesus tells us that loving one’s neighbor is the basics of all the laws and the prophets. However when you read that quote from Leviticus we can see that it is still all about being good to their neighbours while limiting neighbours to those in their own tribe. But with a progressive understanding we come to Jesus who tells us that our neighbour is everyone including their enemies. None of this denies the fact that this belief is spread naturally within cultures, but it does show that it has been part of us from the beginning. The problem is in the institutionalized church there very often only paid lip service to that call on humanity. Humans prejudices, pride, greed, nationalism etc play a role in all religions. However many times they get it right as well. However I would suggest that there is reformation happening within the Christian church. I contend that studying Jesus within His time and culture, and getting away from studying the Bible as answering all the questions, we are shedding some false teachings and gaining new insights. Actually I believe that it has been people in your own country such as Polkinghorne, Wright, Bauckman who have been at the forefront of this. The church as I follow it now is a very different church than the one I grew up and grew away from.
Tangle writes: I guess it is what you call reliable. The Gospel of John was written by an eye witness, probably John the Elder — scroll down,who was either an apostle but more likely a disciple of Jesus pre-resurrection. Peole like Polycarp. Papius and Irenaeus , wrote accounts and were contemporaries of John and other eye witnesses. There are no reliable historical records of the events written in the bible.Luke who wrote the Gospel and Acts travelled with Paul and would have met Peter James etc. The early church taught that Matthew was written by Mathew the tax collector but that is really uncertain but the book would have been written while there were still eyewitnesses alive. The authorship of Mark is uncertain and was the first Gospel written and was used as source material for parts of both Matthew and Luke. There really has been considerable historical research, particularly by Richar Bauckman going through the ancient writings and history apart from what is in the Bible. He wrote a book compiling his research on all of this titled Jesus and the Eyewitnesses I’m part way through reading it now. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: The problem here is that you saying that we can’t get absolute answers from philosophy and by extension theology. You are absolutely right of course. Which is why it's a useless way of finding answers. Either believe whatever suits your personality or don't accept ideas that have no foundation in reality.
So, it isn’t that a lovely kind god is a modern invention. Of course it is. You're floppy, lovely god is brand new - unrecogniseable to an 18th century Christian.
All major religions and something that just about everyone knows deep down is true, is the Golden Rule. Oh ffs, the 'golden rule' is human nature. That's it; evolved moral traits. The 'do as you would be done by' trope is not a supernatural intervention, it's as much part ofus as our ears. How many times?
I guess it is what you call reliable.
The bible is hearsay. Hearsay is the opposite of reliable. That's why it's not regarded as evidence.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
GDR writes: Explain how you get from a mindless universe, held together by mindless mathematical laws to sentient life able to discover and understand those laws. I did:
quote: What part do you not understand?
Cosmic evolution creating plants and suns?Suns giving power? Having elements on planets? Having weather on planets? How weather and elements and power can give rise to early life? How early life evolves into modern life? There's lots of information on all parts.Not all parts have concrete, fully understood answers. But all parts have lots of information we know about them. And all the information we know of all the parts - show that God is not required. As a Christian I believe that God resurrected Jesus. Scientifically we understand that when you're dead and unless there is a resuscitation you stay dead. Science can say that the resurrection does not conform to scientific law. However, Christian understanding is that this was a one time event and that there is no appeal being made for science to support it. It is outside of scientific law. If one is a atheistic then the whole idea of resurrection is impossible. If however one is a theist then we are left to appeal to other sources and form our own opinion as to whether or not we accept that belief as historical. This is one instance, if correct, that this is something that if true would require divine intervention. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone is allowed to believe whatever they want.As long as you're not hurting others - you won't go to jail for it. But whatever beliefs you (or I) may have:-none of the facts above disappear -there is evidence, and factual support for a tentatively held, reasonable conclusion (not a belief) that all that exists is here without God -there is no evidence, and no factual support for a belief that God is required for this universe to be here Edited by Stile, : No reason given. Edited by Stile, : No reason given.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
The big thing that we can learn from philosophy and theology is that in one thing there is consistency. All major religions and something that just about everyone knows deep down is true, is the Golden Rule. [ List of examples for several different religions ] . . . None of this denies the fact that this belief is spread naturally within cultures, but it does show that it has been part of us from the beginning. If something is present in all cultures and has been a part of us from the beginning, then we are the source of it. Something about human nature or group and social dynamics makes it necessary. There is a highly successful game theory strategy called Tit for Tat (quote leaves out section titles):
quote: For reference, the prisoner's dilemma is a game in which the police offer two prisoners a reduced sentence if they betray the other:
quote:Tit-for-tat was used to play the iterated version of the game. This would show how something like the Golden Rule, treating others fairly because you would want to be treated fairly, would arise naturally in human societies. And how empathy, an emotional basis for treating others fairly thus leading to morality, would become a part of our sociability.
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Phat Member Posts: 18349 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Free will in Heaven is sorta like getting on a bus to London. Once you choose to get on that bus, you must ride it to its destination. You cant simply change your mind and order the driver to go elsewhere. Same with Heaven. So what happened to freewill in heaven then?The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes it does. Width has to be wide for everybody, dogs have to be canine for everybody, evidence has to be evident for everybody. By definition. For believers, the evidence does not have to be (indeed likely is not) "evident" to whosoever studies it. You can reject the evidence but you can't pretend it isn't evidence. You can believe something that isn't evident but you can't claim to have "your own evidence".
Phat writes:
But the scripture is fantasy-based. This is scriptural, however, and arguably not fantasy-based."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
Then The Lord of the Rings would be evidence for elves. And Grimm's fairy tales would be evidence for talking bears. The Bible is evidence for Christianity."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You're thinking of a prison bus. Once you choose to get on that bus, you must ride it to its destination. On regular buses, you can get off whenever you want. Or the driver can throw you off. There's no guarantee of getting to your destination. Edited by ringo, : No reason given."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: To a large degree that is probably true. It is actually closer to a 2nd century Christian than to one from the 18th century.
Of course it is. You're floppy, lovely god is brand new - unrecogniseable to an 18th century Christian.Tangle writes: That is again your assertion.
Oh ffs, the 'golden rule' is human nature. That's it; evolved moral traits. The 'do as you would be done by' trope is not a supernatural intervention, it's as much part ofus as our ears. How many times? Tangle writes: John was written by a disciple who followed Jesus prior to the resurrection so it isn't hearsay. Luke and Acts were written by a man who traveled with Paul and who had contact with the original disciples. It isn't hearsay. Matthew was possibly written by a disciple but it would have been written in consultation with the disciples. It is more unclear about who wrote Mark but it certainly would have again been with input from the disciples. Mark was the first Gospel written and was also a source for the other synoptics. The bible is hearsay. Hearsay is the opposite of reliable. That's why it's not regarded as evidence. I use the term disciples not as a synonym for apostle although they may have been. However, I does use it for those who would have followed Jesus during His life time. Obviously Paul abandoned his strong Pharisaic beliefs and gained his Christian understandings from the apostles. There are the others who wrote what they did with information gleamed from the disciples as I mentioned. You use the term hearsay pretty freely.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
dwise1 writes: Firstly if it is there from the beginning then we can't be the source of it. Also I don't deny that it can spread naturally, but that does not rule out in any way the idea that there is a universal morality behind it that is the result of outside intelligence. If something is present in all cultures and has been a part of us from the beginning, then we are the source of it. Something about human nature or group and social dynamics makes it necessary. I wouldn't argue against the tit for tat means of influencing others but that is a human strategy designed to bring about a motivated human desired outcome. In the case of empathy there is no motivation.
dwise1 writes: And how empathy, an emotional basis for treating others fairly thus leading to morality, would become a part of our sociability. I have trouble accepting the idea that those who sacrifice their resources and even their lives for people in other cultures far removed from them. You can say that this is an simply an argument from incredulity and that would be correct but so is the argument against there being an intelligence responsible for life.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: Ask someone to explain to you the difference between what was is obviously meant to be fiction and what is obviously meant to be non-fiction. Then The Lord of the Rings would be evidence for elves. And Grimm's fairy tales would be evidence for talking bears.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Once you choose to get on that bus, you must ride it to its destination. You cant simply change your mind and order the driver to go elsewhere. Same with Heaven. Right, no freewill in heaven then. So it's possible for everybody to be perfectly content without freewill after all. So why all this fuss and bother with mortality and suffering if it's possible without?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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