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Author | Topic: CATO Institute had a big IMMIGRATION AND NATIONAL IDENTITY survey, April 27, 2021 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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LNA’s descent into dishonesty continues.
Here are links to the two posts
Message 2774 Message 2775 Note also that the issue of walls being “racist” was brought up by LNA - who was also trying to argue that the Democratic Party was calling for full amnesty for all illegal immigrants. Let us also note that border security is not just about illegal immigration. Smuggling - especially drugs smuggling - is also an issue. Finally let us note that LNA is continuing the far right strategy of conflating legal and illegal immigration. The Cato institute study is largely about legal immigration and border security should not be any obstacle to that. Fuller quotes here:
Message 2774 That's just an issue you made up. The actual issue is that we should provide legal constitutional due process to those applying for asylum or refugee status, or to those who are in the country illegally. I was against Obama's deportation policies then, and I'm still against them. I think many people feel the same way. Again, no one meant all walls are racist. It's Trump's walls that are racist because he wants to build them not because they're the best border security solution but because they're a symbol of that racism for his base. You're obviously getting your statements of what Democrats believe from Republicans. What Democrats want, what most reasonable people want, is appropriate border security for each stretch of border. Wherever we need walls we should build walls. I, and I hope many others, will oppose all inhumane and antihumanitarian treatment of people at the border, including children. Message 2775 El Paso is in far western Texas where the Rio Grande peters out. I would think they'd need a wall or fence or some kind of border security strategy there.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Irrelevant.
quote: Now that is a falsehood, and an obvious one. You will note that I was the one who provided links and more complete context.
quote: Percy was taking a more moderate position than your idea that illegal immigrants should be given automatic amnesty. I note that you don’t say a thing about legal immigrants in the post Percy was replying to. Which should really be the first concern in “supporting immigrants”. Fair and just treatment of illegal immigrants is still important - but Percy supports that, too.
quote: Not in either of the posts you cited. The closest is:
I don't know if it's accurate or not, just that you're unable to support what you say. You just completely bollocks up your claim that Clinton favored detention by excerpting from an article that never mentioned detention. Or did you mean this?
Fifth, nobody cares what Clinton said four years ago. quote: You were arguing for open borders, and trying to pretend that the Democratic Party was more favourable to the idea than is justifiable based on your own quotes.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Which does not justify misrepresentation or conflating legal and illegal immigration. Nor does it counter the fact that you seem to be in favour of financial limitations on immigration - and call Democrats “anti-immigration” for opposing them (Message 26). (And I’d still love to know how the government would make illegal immigrants pay an immigration tax - how are they supposed to identify them as immigrants?)
quote: And there were sensible reasons for that.
quote: There are plenty of first generation legal immigrants. How are they “thrown under the bus”? Or are they not your “favourite people” at all?
quote: A pathway to citizenship isn’t the same as a blanket amnesty.
quote: Funny how you can only make unsupported accusations.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Which includes legal immigrants.
quote: I did not say that. I said that it was largely about legal immigration. Here is a link to the article on the report Cato Institute There is one section mainly about illegal immigrants. But the points about immigration levels, about the immigration process, about hiring immigrants are all about legal immigrants. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Or I realise that there are ways around that. Such as using fake numbers or those issued to other people.
quote: Well now we’re seeing who is dishonest. You obviously do it. It is obviously a major problem in your position. So it is obviously important to raise it. When you say “1st generation immigrants” do you mean all of them or only the illegals? If you mean the latter you should say so. If not, then I’m still waiting to hear how 1st generation legal immigrants were “thrown under the bus”
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Then you should really mention the effect on the polls if it is what you are actually complaining about.
quote: I did no such thing. But let us note that this has nothing to do with the question of how first generation legal immigrants could be “thrown under the bus” by “selling out” those “vulnerable to deportation” (which should not include legal immigrants).
quote: You misrepresent me again. I make no such insistence. I only ask you to explain why a statement which seems to focus on illegal immigrants should be considered to apply to all first generation immigrants.
quote: This hardly seems to address the point. It is far too vague and doesn’t even allege harm serious enough to justify the “thrown under the bus” claim.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: So you accused me of lying about a study I hadn’t even talked about.
quote: And you didn’t even have a good reason for thinking that I was talking about it rather than the study in the title of this thread. In other words your accusation was an outright lie.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That only shows that there is a lot of racism in America.
quote: I did not say that. I have corrected you on this point already, so you have no excuse.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Much of it is about legal immigration. For instance the question about whether immigration procedures are too difficult is about legal immigration. The question about whether immigration should be banned is about legal immigration.
quote: Since I did not say that the poll “is about American views of legal immigrants” - I said it was largely about legal immigration - I certainly can deny that I have a “stupid obsession”.
quote: Racist Americans like to assume that all suspected immigrants are illegal immigrants. That’s hardly a good reason to ignore the distinction. Indeed, it is siding with the racists.
quote: I certainly did not.
quote: I would urge you to stop lying about what I have said. And to follow your own advice, because you will find that many of the questions deal with legal immigration.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: How?
quote: I never said that the general class of immigrants did not include illegals. Obviously it does - and these quotes are hardly a good way of making that case. Let me help you. I get that you are going to lie about me - as you have just done. That is not going to persuade me to run away. It just convinces me that you are a vile person.
quote: So? It doesn’t change the fact that illegal immigrants are those who have not gone through the procedures for legal immigration. It doesn’t change the fact that calls for increases in immigration mean increasing legal immigration. It doesn’t change the fact that adding a requirement on immigrants to promise not to use social security is a requirement placed on legal immigrants.
quote: There is no confusion to clear up. I know that you are a lying shit who loves to misrepresent those who disagree.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: That more accurately describes your behaviour.
quote: I entered the thread to correct your misrepresentation of Percy’s post, providing links and placing the quotes in context. This is a fine example of a “dishonest irrelevancy”.
quote: I think you mean that I caught you lying about what Percy had said. That’s the only references to Clinton in my posts - and those are quotes from Percy’s post.
quote: Which you certainly did.
quote: Not true. I said that you seem to count all immigrants as illegal. You even defended that by asserting that many Americans see no difference.
quote: I certainly did not. I said that the poll was largely about legal immigration. “Largely” does not mean “entirely”, and I even provided examples - none of which you disputed.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: I keep telling you that if you want me to stop responding lying about me is not the way to do it.
quote: Really,no. I’ve been doing it a lot.
quote: You certainly argued that calling the wall racist meant opposing borders.
( The right to NOT be walled off by a border check is another issue. Democrats are on the record calling walls "racist", and we all know walls are just a symbol of borders) Democrats will be in power again, and we will see if "walls are racist" (or "The Wall is racist") will be matched with sincerity in policymaking. Walls are just a symbol of borders. Will Democrats seriously challenge borders?
Message 2770Of course that isn’t true - the motivation for Trump’s wall was clearly racist, for one thing. quote: And you aren’t? You have told far more lies than I have.
quote: Because your constant lying failed to drive me away?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Now? It’s not a new point. You use the general word “immigrants” when you seem to be only talking about illegals. When you said that the Democratic Party was not doing enough to help immigrants you said nothing about legal immigrants - it was all about illegals (Message 34). When you said that the Democrats “threw 1st generation immigrants under the bus” you’ve never explained how that applies to legal immigrants (Message 35)- and the use of “vulnerable to deportation” certainly makes it seem as if you only meant illegals.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That doesn’t really help you.
quote: As I’ve shown you equated the idea that the wall was racist with the idea that borders are racist. That isn’t necessarily true - the fact that Trump introduced his idea of a wall between the US and Mexico with a racist attack on Mexicans is a good reason for calling that wall racist.
quote: As I recall most of the wall actually built only replaced existing barriers. Why spend money taking it down if a barrier is wanted there?(Wikipedia agrees: The U.S. built new barriers along 455 miles (732 km),[6][7][8] 49 miles (79 km) of which previously had no barrier.[7][8] Much of the remainder consists of 30-foot-tall (9.1 m) steel fencing where previously there had been smaller fencing to deter automobiles. )
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That is not in question, is it? The question is what they meant by it. And you have provided no support at all for your claim that they meant that border security was inherently racist.
quote: You mean apart from the Wikipedia quote that indicated that only out of the 455 miles built, all but 49 replaced existing barriers.
quote: If they meant what you said. If on the other hand they had the view that Percy and I attribute to them their opposition simply requires that building efforts halt. As they have done. So it comes down to you to support your claim.
quote: Or objections to Trump’s racist speech, or to the waste of resources on a disruptive vanity project, or to the new barriers which were never built and which will not be built under Biden. Any and all of these are valid and do not require more action (indeed financial prudence would require keeping the sections where barriers are wanted rather than spending more money to tear it down and then build different barriers). And all seem more likely than an inherent objection to barriers at the border.
quote: The parts which were actually built - which do not include the most controversial sections.
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