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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
One would think that God would let you in based on intangibles in your character, even though you hate religion and even though you diss Jesus. But then again you were raised Catholic IIRC so its understandable.
You were never one of the saved by grace crowd as was I.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Thats reasonable. Keep in mind that I'm not selling religion...I'm just exchanging ideas. I most certainly would not want anyone to have to die in order to discover the truth about reality.
I have my beliefs and will admit to a bias in favor of the Christianity I know.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Imagine (remix by Phat)
Imagine all the people creating their own identity No Man nor Woman All Non Binary We will burn down all churches our minds unshackled and free With but science to guide us all inclusive equality Imagine theres no countriesNo top dog to set the rules Just one united nations a great starship of fools Imagine there's no heavenJesus just a myth you see No hell below us We make our own identity Imagine all the people Throwing God Away You may say I'm a dreamerBut I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the government will be as one Imagine no possessionsthat you can call your own No one is any better No one has their own home Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You may say I'm a dreamerBut I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be free of Republicans Imagine no possessionsthe state owns everything Money is created freely with no floor nor ceiling imagine all the nationsSharing all we have You may say im a dreamer but i gave it all away the only ones are elitists who have slightly better pay Edited by Phat, . Edited by Phat, . Edited by Phat, .
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I can hardly wait for the day that we all eat bugs together!
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
To you, Gnostic Christianity is just your way to be special...to imagine yourself an enlightened mystic. You do not know Jesus and the belief that you hold has many flaws. Drop it and admit you are an atheist or dont waste my time with your intellectually handicapped mind.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Except that you cant control how people think, what they believe, or make them do anything. There's the rub.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Silly Rabbit! The Holy Spirit is already here. You and your science have no power nor ability to vanquish Him. Jesus returns later, after humans have mucked up everything. We do owe it to ourselves to give it the old college try, however!
The Weather could determine a lot!
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes:
Now for my point of view: Subjective meaning is better than objective meaning.It's simple to show: Different people want different things - and the secret to having meaning is to identify the things that are important to you and make sure you're making progress on those goals in your life. It can be very difficult to do for some, but it's not a big secret on how to do it. Because different people want different things, having an "external" or "objective" meaning is, well, useless. Objective meaning is better than subjective meaning. Similar people (seekers of truth)want similar things-and the secret to finding/having meaning is to identify the thing(s) that are/ is important to you and to strive to make progress on this goal in your life. It can be very difficult to do for some, but it's not a big secret on how to do it. (Edited for clarity, continuing in my next post) Edited by Phat, .
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I reread what I posted...let me add to and edit that!
This is how I really wanted to say my case, contrasting it with your previous reply regarding subjectivity. It's simple to show: Let's take two serious seekers of truth and a quest for knowing God. Both are in church for the first time(s) in their life. One wants to find God and surrender, the other wants to achieve self actualization and improve himself through knowledge(Gnosis). Their quest is similar.The one who wants to know God and is drawn by the Spirit will meet God in church (or in a park, or at home or wherever they happen to be) The one who wants to achieve self actualization will have feelings of ambivalence and confusion while in a formal church setting. They will question why they are listening to the dogma. They will grow restless and leave the church, convinced that they were mere sheeple and/or blissfully ignorant. They will search elsewhere...not for "God" particularly but for self actualization and contentment. Does this make sense? Stile writes: In other words, everybody will find what they really want. For some, its objective. For others, its subjective. It doesn't even matter what the external meaning is... as soon as it's one single thing... this just isn't going to work for everyone because people are different. And, it's only going to work for those who's subjective meaning happens to coincide with it anyway... which, again, means the external meaning is useless. Everyone is looking for greater truth. For the science minded, it is more exciting to ask more questions and reject pat (or easy) answers. For those of us who know ourselves and simply want stability and guidance in life, church can be welcoming and safe. We dont want to find out that there is no God, especially after we believed that we had met Him. The science based mind, by contrast, is taught to set aside prior conclusions and move on. For them, there is always more to be discovered. Edited by Phat, : I like this phrasing better
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If you consider yourself to be a libertarian, why would you want to surrender? What do my politics have to do with my spirituality? I want to surrender to a Higher power. I dont want to surrender to common consensus. The people do not know the answer.
If you are a serious seeker of truth, why aren't you more skeptical of what you hear and read, including what you hear in church? Why aren't you looking for better evidence? There is no better evidence. Unlike some, I do not throw God away. I have found truth. my challenge is found in my ability and willingness to better live up to it.The rest of you can go and seek deeper truth all day until Sunday.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Did you even start that thinking skills course? I did. I have not had time to finish it.
the only thing I surrender to is a nice scotch. Cheers.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
OK> I thought of this question you once posed and found a quick answer which you will agree with.
Cosmic Skeptic Short
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This is an interesting and thoughtful reply from you, Stile. I wanted to respond back with further thoughts of my own, but in order to do so, allow me a bit of poetic license on subjective meanings of words used by you in this exchange...perhaps if nothing else but to inspire further reflection.
Stile writes:
Historically, does a King have subjects or do they have objects? Are the people subjective to a King or are they objective?
... if you're attempting to say that something from God is objective, that something has to not be influenced by God's feelings or opinions and be external to God as well.If you want to claim that nothing is external to God... then nothing from God is objective. It's all subjective - according to God. Something that's subjective, but from God doesn't turn into "objective" for us... it's simply external to us. But it's still subjective - according to God. Stile writes: Perhaps in granting humanity free will, God gave us the ability to be objective. We became free to determine our own objectives...even at the risk (to God) of rejecting Him. Historic dogma(apologetics) would say that God is not so much threatened by our rejection except for His concern of our destiny. Critics would ask why God cant simply make everyones destiny secure regardless of their freely given objective choice. I have no easy answer for that one yet.
Many people couldn't care less about what you and I described as "greater truth." Stile writes: And yet you state that you *know* that God does not exist, whereas I would state that I *know* that He does. Both of us find Him exciting, though I would qualify that by saying that occasionally I find Him to be a bit scary and difficult to know since I believe that His standards are nearly impossible for me to accept (unless He makes a way for me). I actually find God more exciting than science. What's more exciting than magic and mystery?Granted He has magic in that all things are possible with Him...just as all things would theoretically be possible with magic. And both of us can definitely agree on the mystery of it all. For you, there is no rational connection. For me, there must be a rational connection...or even an irrational one if that is how it is meant to be. I wont place all of my eggs in the science basket due to the belief that science alone wont solve all human problems. In fact, science might end up being so "logical" as to eliminate humans from future equations regarding purpose and destiny. AI could conceivably replace us. Stile writes: Only because I have a personal stake in the results of this experiment. Im not ready to casually toss away data in order to find more (as an easy replacement).
Careful - your arrogance is showing.
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