Ever lasting life with or without God.

Well if this your criteria for proving that God exists then you have to explan these following cases.From 404 Not Found Sai Baba has cured hundreds of people who have had serious illnesses. He is endowed with all virtues and yet attributesless, Sai Baba is an incarnation of Lord Shiva. The Good Lord incarnates age after age to redeem mankind from sins. (BabaSai.com is for sale | HugeDomains) So as well as the Judeo/Christian God we also have a Hindu God, how many more Gods are there in the celestial zoo?There are many examples of Allah healing Muslims who have been prayed for. There are also examples from other faiths, such as Sikhism, where praying to God has 'healed' a person.So how do these people get healed, is it psychosomatic and if it is then isn't it perfectly possible that the Christian healings are psychosomatic also?Remember that the Christian God is a jealous God and does not look to kindly upon people who worship other gods, so there's no excuse of His all loving Grace falling upon these unbelievers.How do you explain this?Brian.

Hi Mike,I dont want to appear mean, but essentially you haven't answered my question.All you have done is to give other examples, which I am sure there are parallels of in other faiths.Could I ask you again how people are healed by prayers to other gods?Many ThanksBrian.

Hi Ned,I was going to go on to the other examples after Mike gives an explanation for the healing of followers of other gods.This is a typical inerrantist tactic. When faced with a question that they have no explanation for they just ignore it and regurgitate some other nonsense hoping that their opponent will forget the original question. I have had too many discussions with inerrantists to let Mike off the hook that easily.Once the first question has been answered then I would move onto the other 'examples'.What about the 'superman' evangelist that weapons just bounced off him because he called on the Holy Spirit, I think the Holy Spirit he called on came in a whisky bottle. But we can ask for documentation after Mike clears up why false gods heal their followers.Thanks for the reminder anywayTake careBrian.

HI Mike,You still havent explained how these people are healed. Whether you like it of not the incarnation of the Hindu God Shiva Sai Baba has literally hundreds of documented healings. There are countless examples of people who do not believe in the God of the Bible who are healed by their own particular God.Think of this, lets say for a minute, for the sake of argument that it is confirmed by everyone that Jesus is God and has healed all these people, lets say that no one doubts this at all.This still leaves the question unanswered because countless people who worship other gods HAVE been healed, I am not saying that their gods healed them but something did, so what, in your opinion was it?There must be some explanation for it.What do you think it is that has healed these people?Best WishesBrian

Not really sarcasm, more a possible explanation for a highly unlikely event. Many people whose state of consciousness is altered claim to have experienced marvelous things. In my experience many people who recieve the Holy Spirit do in fact behave similarly to someone who has been drinking alcohol.Who was this guy and has it been confirmed by an independant body of scientists that he is 'bulletproof'?

I posted a link that you could read that would make you aware of these healings. You could also investigate the topic yourself.Personally I have not seen or heard of anyone that has been healed by Jesus.Stalemate?PS. Why would I want to attack you? You have your beliefs and I have mine, it is all a part of life's rich tapestry.

Yes faith is needed.You see the funny thing is, and I am not pointing the finger at you, but Bible believers are wasting their time looking for secular evidence to support their faith.One thing I have learned from these debates is that when a believer looks for evidence for a certain thing, say the worldwide flood of Noah's narrative, and they find that science disproves it beyond all doubt, they then play the faith card!So there's no point, because no matter the amount of negative evidence the believer is never going to change his/her mind. As far as they are concerned Jesus is God and the Bible is perfect, it doesn't matter that very little of it can be proved, it always comes back to faith.My own opinion is that if someone is looking for proof of the things that were said to have happened in the Bible then their faith isn't that strong.

hi Mike, This is untrue, apart from a few cities, regions and some individuals, archaeology is silent about the vast majority of biblical events.Creationists seem to know less about archaeology than they do about science. What do you think archaeology has backed?Here are a few questions that maybe you could provide archaeological support for.1. Can you provide any evidence for any of the patriarchs?2. Can you provide any evidence for Israelites in Egypt before the 9th century BC?3. Can you explain why there are two different routes for the Exodus?4. Why are so many of the places given for the Exodus route never been found?5. Why are such prominent characters, such as Saul, David, and Solomon, who have great epic events associated with them totally invisible?6. Why are some of the Canaanite cities 'utterley destroyed' by Joshua suddenly still occupied by Canaanites in Judges?What you have to realise Mike is that archaelogy can do little to prove biblical events, so what if the bible happens to mention a city from antiquity, all that proves is that the person writing the account has recorded the name of a city.Think of it this way. Read a James Bond novel and you will read about places like London, Washington, Moscow, and a whole range of other real towns and cities, this doesn't mean there is a real James Bond, or a real M, or Q, or Moneypenny!Say for example that someone happens to find an inscription that mentions King Solomon, it is a non-sequitur that everything in the bible about Solomon becomes true. Who are 'they'?Again this is circumstantial evidence. Would it be possible for buildings to remain after the tremendous amount of water needed to flood the earth to the depth of 22ft above Everest?What was the dating of the buildings and the other 'signs of life'?Has there been any other buildings found in any other countries that were flooded at the same time as the Black Sea ones?Does the evidence suggest a local flood or a worldwide one?Also, please take this piece of advice, it is nothing personal but you really need to start referencing your sources if you are to be taken seriously. It has disproven many things in it yes. The spiritual side of things cannot be proven or disproven but the brute facts can.Science has disproven that people can live to the age of 969 years.Science has disproven that sheep mating in sight of striped branhces does not influence the genetic make up of the sheep.Science has disproven the sudden appearance of all varieties of life on the planet.Science has disproven a wordwide flood, a flood of this magnitude has to leave a universal fingerprint, it has left nothing.I could go on and on, but I hope you get the drift. Sorry but I found nothing on that page that proves anything at all from the Bible, maybe you could help me out here and explain what to me what you think has been proven here. Im sorry but I don't think God has been disproved, He has not been proved either, and as there is no evidence to support the existence of God then I have no reason to believe that one exists.Evolution has been proved, it is seen everyday. What makes you think that evolution doesn't happen?What do you find amusing about the evolution of man?You had to play the faith card in relation to the healings discussion, and I can tell you for a fact that you have to play it again in relation to archaeology.I am not a scientist, so I wouldn't claim to have a great knowledge of evolutionary science, I leave that to the people who are qualified scientists.As far as Theology and Archaeology are concerned, I am very happy to discuss any aspect of either with you as I am very much at home in these areas.Best WishesBrian.------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Hi Mike, OK. lets ignore for the moment that we don't know who these archaeologists are, thats actually irrelevant to the point.The falling of the walls of Jericho prove what?You do know that the dating of any destruction at Jericho is at odds with Bible chronology? Jericho was uninhabted when Joshua was said to have destroyed it.But on a basic premise of archaeology, that the walls of Jericho are found in a condition that suggests they crumbled actually proves what?All it proves is that the walls have fallen at some stage of their existence. Now you have to discover evidence of when they fell, what was the likely cause of this, when did it happen, and is ther a way to link this to the biblical account?How do you know that this narrative isnt simply etiological?Archaeology cannot prove that God had a hand in the falling of Jericho's walls, that is taken on faith. Sorry, but Sodom and Gomorah have not been found, where are you getting this stuff? Common sense tells me the opposite, where did God get the material from to create things with. Is it common sense to think that man was made from a handful of dust and a woman was made from a rib? Why wasn't Eve only 4 inches tall ? You are going to have to be a bit more specific here, like where and when and what. There will be evidence of 'Canaanites' of course since there were trade routes into Egypt, nomads also settled in the Eastern Delta, but what specifically identifies 'Jewish' ethnicity?You tell me who the archaeologist is and I will tell him he is wrong. I sincerely hope it wasn't David Rohl! How do we know that there was a pre-flood earth when there is no evidence of a flood?Every biological fact has proven that we cannot live to 969 years of age. Our bodies could not cope with that life span. Do you have direct physical evidence of this, or is it down to that faith thing again? Yes I do not doubt that you have answered honestly, and I appreciate your time and effort in posting these examples.You have not explicitly mentioned faith, but some of your examples are purely faith based, like the 969 years of age and the 'better' pre flood world.You also need faith that God made the walls of Jericho fall.Sodom and Gomorah have not been found, you need faith that they ever existed, read the myth of Baucis and Philemon, this could prove that the Sodom and Gomorah narrative is a product of the storyteller's imagination.I cannot see how creation can be taken on anything else other than faith.Take careBrian
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Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing![This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 05-13-2003]

Hi Mike Mike I am not a scientist either, that is why you will very seldom see me tackling a scientific question regarding evolution. I would only answer that type of question if it was a very easy one to answer, like the often promoted 'if man descended from apes why are there still apes?', I would answer these type of questions, but I am out of my depth when things start to get serious. I recognise that I am out of my depth so I do not really get that involved.To be perfectly honest, although I find the evolution/creation debate interesting, I am not all that fascinated by it. My own subjects are World Religions, The Old Testament, The Primary History of Ancient Israel, and Near Eastern Archaeology. These are what I am interested in and what I feel I can discuss at a fairly decent academic level.Maybe in the future I might decide to study a science, but at the moment I really do not have the time. That being said, I can still identify blatant mistakes at many websites, which are both creationist and evolutionist.The thing about the creationist sites, in my opinion, is that they are mostly run by nonqualified people, there are some that have qualified scientists but these are few and far between. These sites tend to repeat the same sort of arguments, even when an argument has been shown to be in error, you can still find it promoted at certain creationist sites.If I were really that interested in learning about the origins of life from a scientific viewpoint I would study at a local college and then go to a university and gain the knowledge that would enable me to make an informed choice for myself. I would not learn about science from a website unless it had been recommended to me by a course advisor or had been specifically set up for the course I was doing.As for creation, I have taught creation many times, I have taught many different creation myths in the last 4 and a half years. Creation is taught in schools, in departments of religious studies, and I believe that is where it belongs. It really has nothing to do with your intelligence, it has to do with the number of hours of study that you put in.If i could make an observation, and please do not take this personally, I think that maybe you should focus on one topic at a time, gain a good knowledge of that topic and then discuss it. Once you are fairly competent at that topic then study another one, and so on.I am not singling you out here, a few bible beievers have appeared here in the las tfew months and they try to hold discussions in about 6 or 7 diferent topics, and it simply cannot be done. I know that you mean well and you are doing your best to defend your beliefs, and I applaud you for that, but by spreading yourself too thinly you do not have the time to argue each case strongly enough. It has nothing to do with youyr intelligence but a lot to do with focussing on one subject at a time and becoming familiar with that subject.I think we are all guilty of wanting to run before we can walk, but gaining a good knowledge of a subject takes time. If you simply repeat what you read on some websites then there are many people at this site that will tear your arguemtns to shreds. This is because a lot of people at this site have studied these topics to a very high academic level and have heard ALL the arguments that you have posted before.This is why I could answer all your questions about archaeology and the Bible very soon after you posted them. I have studied Near Eastern Archaeology for years and all the points you raised are bacis points that I have heard many times before.You will need to work on your memory and there are various techniques to help you do that.I sympathise when you post something like 'an archaeologist says there were Israelites in Egypt' and you cannot recall who said it. I was very guilty of this myself for a long time, but saying this is no use in a debate. Your opponent could counter by saying that they know an archaeolgist who says there wasn't Israelites in Egypy. The debate then is meaningless, you cancel each other out and no one learns anything new. It is very boring yes, but I am not here to score points, I am here to help improve my knowledge.I am not trying to correct you for the sake of just disagreeing with you, I am interested in perhaps you and I and everyone else at this forum working together to improve each other's knowledge, and if I see you posting something that I know for certain to be incorrect then I assume that you would at least look into it and perhaps appreciate that I have taken the time to point out the mistake. I would be very grateful to anyone who took the time to help me out by showing me a mistake that I have posted.We all make mistakes Mike, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and non of us are perfect. I don't claim to know everything about the Bible or archaeology, but because I am very interested in them both that is why I study them almost everyday.Take Care Mike,Brian