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Author Topic:   Why only one Grand Canyon
JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 49 of 85 (160950)
11-18-2004 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by roxrkool
11-17-2004 11:33 PM


quote:
Collins, L. G. and Fasold, D. F., 1996, Bogus "Noah's Ark" from Turkey Exposed as a Common Geologic Structure. Journal of Geoscience Education, v. 44, p. 439-444.
Available on-line at Bogus "Noah's Ark" from Turkey Exposed as a Common Geologic Structure.
Re: Scholars and Mt. Sinai is also interesting.

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 Message 48 by roxrkool, posted 11-17-2004 11:33 PM roxrkool has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 80 of 85 (196885)
04-05-2005 9:51 AM


SonClad: Here's your place for Grand Canyon talk
In Message 26 SonClad wrote:
Take a look at the deep canyons that formed afterwards. Solid rock canyons were cut at St. Helens shortly after its eruption and take note of the irregular formations.
As has been pointed out many times in many forums, the canyon of the North Fork of the Toutle River (and any other "canyons" in the area, such as Engineer's Canyon) was not cut in solid rock; it was cut in soft, unconsolidated ash. We can see this easily because the walls of the canyon are not near-vertical (as we see in the Grand Canyon), but instead are near-45°:
See Re: Mt. St. Helens and Evidence for a young earth (note that the link referred to has moved to REPORT: Volcanic Debris Avalanches). And, from Volcanic Studies at the U.S. Geological Survey's David A. Johnston Cascades Volcano Observatory, Vancouver, Washington:
quote:
The debris avalanche that triggered the eruption slid north into Spirit Lake and west 25 kilometers down the North Fork Toutle River valley, covering the valley floor with unconsolidated debris to an average depth of 45 meters and as much as 180 meters in some places. Rapid erosion resulting from the breaching of numerous ponds and lakes on the deposit and surface runoff have produced a new drainage system on the avalanche. Streams following the initial drainage pattern quickly eroded narrow channels because of the generally steep slopes and the readily erodible character of the avalanche deposit.
{emphasis added - JonF}
Decreasing flood water dynamics and subsequent river erosion can certainly form the formations that we see in the Grand Canyon (even sharp angled turns and horseshoe-shaped hollows). Mount St. Helens: Evidence in Support of Biblical Catastrophism
There's no mention there of forming horseshoe bends and sharp turns. Let's see your evidence for this claim.
However, that side does include another picture of the 45° walls of the "canyon". It also includes the old and misleading "one-fortieth the size of" the Grand Canyon. It's more realistic to compare volume removed, whic results in the Grand Canyon being over 100,000 times larger than this Toutle River "canyon".
It also clains that the "canyon" was cut 140 feet deep. There's disagreement about this. There are topographic profiles measured February 24, 1982 and March 20, 1982 (before and after the mudslide) which indicate that the "canyon" was cut between 15 and 34 feet deep; see Error 400 (Bad Request)!!1.
On the flip side of your solid rock wall question - why do we not see similar deep canyons formed by the world's mighty rivers?
To some extent we do, such as Three Gorges of the Yangtze:
But there are several pages on this in this thread already.
A little more information at http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH581_1.html

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by SonClad, posted 04-05-2005 1:40 PM JonF has replied
 Message 85 by tsig, posted 05-11-2005 5:39 AM JonF has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 83 of 85 (196965)
04-05-2005 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by SonClad
04-05-2005 1:40 PM


Re: SonClad: Here's your place for Grand Canyon talk
Arguing by quotes and links alone is frowned on here.
Prior to the eruption of August 7, we drove vertical rows of 16-cm-long iron nails flush with the bedrock (breccia) wall in the stairsteps as high as 10 m above the floor. After passage of pyroclastic flows, the upper part of the stairsteps showed erosion of 4 cm or more, irrespective of height above the floor; thus, erosion was not confined to low parts of the stair steps. All nails from the stations near the base of the stair steps were removed by the flow and the configuration of the channel differed from that before the eruption. The parts of other channels low on the volcano flank also are deeper and wider with respect to the pre-May 18 stream valleys than those parts higher on the flank. Erosion was greatest where the pyroclastic flows traveled at their greatest speed near the base of the steep flank; there the flows abraded and scoured most parts of the bedrock channel to depths measured in meters. Furthermore, preliminary topographic contours suggest that pyroclastic flows of May 18 may have gouged out the base of the stair steps more than 35 m below the pre-May 18 surface. During the eruption of October 16-18, the walls of the stair steps were further modified by local removal of more than several meters of bedrock. For example, a nearly vertical, 10-m-high bedrock (breccia) cliff between the second and third step down from the top of the stairsteps became a gently sloping, 3-m-wide gully.
1. We were talking about water erosion, not erosion by pyroclastic flow.
2. What was the total volume of material removed?
3. The description makes it clear that the eroded area does not resemble the Grand Canyon.
4. Did the eroded ara include any 180° switchbacks?
Coralville Lake, named for the nearby town which was in turn titled for the area's fossil coral formations (Figure 3), was subjected to the historic floods of 1993 which devastated Iowa and the adjacent midwestern states. Water began to overflow the concrete emergency spillway on 5 July 1993 and continued for a period of 28 days. A maximum estimated flow rate of 17,000 cfs was reached on 24 July following closure of the normal outlet gates for seven hours due to downstream flooding of the Iowa River (Rogers, 1993). The water level in the lake at this time was 4.5 ft higher than the top of the spillway.
Figure 4 provides a view of the resultant erosion damage below the spillway, with the concrete spillway itself visible in the background. A 15-foot channel was eroded into the underlying bedrock (Anon., 1993), exposing the Devonian limestone which in evolutionary time is said to be some 375 million years old.
OK. The photos make it clear that this does not in any way resemble the Grand Canyon. Yes, gigantic water flows can erode rock quickly ... but it doesn't produce features like the Grand Canyon, with near-vertical walls and 180° switchbacks and side canyons. The only reason that a moderatly narrow channel was produced was the guidance by the spillway. Flood runoff produces features like the Channled Scablands:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by SonClad, posted 04-05-2005 1:40 PM SonClad has not replied

Replies to this message:
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