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Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 297 (244813)
09-19-2005 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by gene90
09-18-2005 11:59 PM


Re: Sheehan: End Occupation of New Orleans
The reason I mentioned Sheehan is to demonstrate that no matter what Bush does, somebody somewhere will come out of the woodwork to censure him.

That may be true. But that doesn't refute legitimate criticism of his actions. And perhaps the reason that he's so roundly censured is because his actions are usually so completely wrongheaded.

And, predictably, I notice that, just like the rest of the right, you had no particular refutation against any of Sheehan's arguments; in regards to the Iraq war she's leveled specific and supportable charges against the conduct of the president that deserved to be answered. In response Republicans attacked her personally, exactly as you have done. But that's just the latest example of Republican's time-worn technique of personal attacks to preserve the president's image at all costs.

But, you know, whatever. If calling a grieving war mom names floats your boat and makes you feel better about your guy in the White House, knock yourself out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by gene90, posted 09-18-2005 11:59 PM gene90 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by gene90, posted 09-19-2005 2:30 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 272 of 297 (244945)
09-19-2005 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by crashfrog
09-19-2005 7:43 AM


Re: Sheehan: End Occupation of New Orleans
quote:
But that doesn't refute legitimate criticism of his actions.

No, but again it does show the lengths people will go to make that criticism.

quote:
And perhaps the reason that he's so roundly censured is because his actions are usually so completely wrongheaded.

That would be the Bandwagon Fallacy.

quote:
And, predictably, I notice that, just like the rest of the right, you had no particular refutation against any of Sheehan's arguments

I don't have to, the claim that we are 'occupying' New Orleans is absurd on the face of it. That, by the way, is the only Sheehan charge that is relevant to this thread.

quote:
In response Republicans attacked her personally, exactly as you have done.

And you didn't make an ad hominem attack on her when you asked 'why the fuck should I care what she says'?

[Quoting Crashfrog]

quote:
She's shooting her mouth off and acting stupid.

Hey, if somehow you cannot criticize a grieving mom when she thrusts herself into the public spotlight to make a political point, I guess you need to work on your consistency, huh?

This message has been edited by gene90, 09-19-2005 02:33 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by crashfrog, posted 09-19-2005 7:43 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by gene90, posted 09-19-2005 2:59 PM gene90 has not yet responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 273 of 297 (244957)
09-19-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by gene90
09-19-2005 2:30 PM


Re: Sheehan: End Occupation of New Orleans
Here we go, for those armchair FEMA types:

Today's 11 AM EDT forecast discussion for Tropical Storm Rita:

quote:
ATMOSPHERIC CONDITIONS ARE CONTINUING TO BECOME MORE CONDUCIVE FOR
STRENGTHENING...AND ALL FORECAST GUIDANCE SUGGESTS RITA SHOULD
INTENSIFY SOME MORE...BEFORE AND AFTER IT REACHES THE GULF OF
MEXICO. THE NEW OFFICIAL INTENSITY FORECAST IS ADJUSTED UPWARD AND
IS A BLEND BETWEEN THE SHIPS AND GFDL GUIDANCE THROUGH DAY 3...AND
SHOWS RITA REACHING CATEGORY TWO STATUS BEFORE REACHING THE GULF OF
MEXICO. THERE IS A SLIGHT POSSIBILITY IT COULD STRENGTHEN FASTER
THAN FORECAST. ALL INDICATIONS ARE THAT RITA WILL BECOME A MAJOR
HURRICANE OVER THE GULF OF MEXICO... WHERE A LARGE UPPER LEVEL
ANTICYCLONE IS FORECAST BY THE MODELS TO DOMINATE AND PROVIDE A
WEAK SHEAR ENVIRONMENT.

Who wants to start predicting the apocalypse? (Please also read message 255 for greater context on Gulf hurricanes).

Here is a link to the probabilistic wind chart (caution: experimental product).

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/storm_graphics/AT18/refresh/AL1805I_sm2+gif/153924P_sm.gif

This message has been edited by gene90, 09-19-2005 03:02 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by gene90, posted 09-19-2005 2:30 PM gene90 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by RAZD, posted 09-19-2005 10:03 PM gene90 has not yet responded

1.61803
Member
Posts: 2823
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 274 of 297 (244959)
09-19-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by TheLiteralist
09-16-2005 5:08 PM


Re: real purpose of FEMA
Don't we all just love them conspiracy theories.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-16-2005 5:08 PM TheLiteralist has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 275 of 297 (245036)
09-19-2005 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by gene90
09-19-2005 2:59 PM


Rita
you have no idea how much heartburn this storm is causing now, having just relocated a project from NO to galveston and getting some additional services from key west ...

Projected path (click)

I also noted that Nagin pulled back from encouraging residents to return to NO, saying that another storm with only a 3 ft surge or 9" rain would reflood the city.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by gene90, posted 09-19-2005 2:59 PM gene90 has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 276 of 297 (245040)
09-19-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by gene90
09-18-2005 11:56 PM


Re: Some more points ...
Okay, but right now you have the mayor of New Orleans and the current head of the Federal relief effort contradicting each other. See my previous post.

se my previous post. heh, the difference a little {time\planning} will make eh? We could also talk about the PLAN to rehabilitate NO. :laugh:

Right, but normally building codes are the province of local governments.

True, but you can have state or federal restrictions on minimum provisions in certain high-risk areas.

On the gulf coast of MS I believe there is a state regulation on the minimum level for living quarters in new construction. It will be interesting to see what Trent Lotts new house will look like.

Okay, but if you were in charge of FEMA or DHS on last August 27th...how quickly should FEMA have gotten there, with how many people, and how do we know the figures are reasonable?

They should have been in manned evacuation centers before the storm hit in sufficient numbers to provide the medical, food, security and shelter requirements. Proper planning gives you the breakdown on people numbers and talents and when each goes where. Evaluation of the planning process tells you whether it is a {feasible\reasonable} plan.

This is already done.

I know, but americans are reluctant to really put an effort into it at the personal level, rather than pay someone to sort it out later at much higher cost.

The rubbish landfill is a lot easier to license. Basically you're talking about moving this rubbish to build on. Subsidence/compaction will likely cause some foundation damage but it's a way that cities have historically dealt with flooding and added real-estate to waterlines.

If the subsidence\compaction is all within the foundation walls and the rubbish is used to keep those walls from collapsing inward as they end up deep underground over time, this should not be a problem. Each building would need to be (designed\built) with a means to raise it on the current foundation and put in another level (of bricks or whatever) with the void filled by the rubbish (oh what fun future archaeologists would have).

The other advantage of the venicing of NO is that you would allow the natural flooding of the delta to replenish the soil in the canals.

How much would this cost? You might want to look at, I think, message 255 ...

If you've done your homework, and planned for the centers to be there for "the big one" knowing there will be many duds in between, and knowing that the actual full resources will only be used on "the big one" then the only cost associated with a dud is some man-ours and associated supplies that would also be incurred for any {practice\simulation\test} runs. This adds to the confidence level of the staff and of the people in the area.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by gene90, posted 09-18-2005 11:56 PM gene90 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by gene90, posted 09-20-2005 12:42 PM RAZD has responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 277 of 297 (245164)
09-20-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by RAZD
09-19-2005 10:23 PM


Re: Some more points ...
quote:
se my previous post. heh, the difference a little {time\planning} will make eh? We could also talk about the PLAN to rehabilitate NO.

We could, but I don't think we have to. Because last night on CNN Headline News I saw Nagin asserting the fact that he is Mayor Nagin and the head of the Federal relief effort (I still don't remember his name) is overstepping his authority.

Of course, now that there is a new tropical system in the Gulf Nagin sensibly says to get out.

I think FEMA/DHS should change the wording of their mission statement. The Congress may expect them to lead but it looks to me like they weren't empowered to, especially since the local gov't of New Orleans has primary responsibility for the city itself.

quote:

True, but you can have state or federal restrictions on minimum provisions in certain high-risk areas.

Okay. I hadn't heard about Federal but will take your word for it.

quote:
They should have been in manned evacuation centers before the storm hit in sufficient numbers to provide the medical, food, security and shelter requirements. Proper planning gives you the breakdown on people numbers and talents and when each goes where. Evaluation of the planning process tells you whether it is a {feasible\reasonable} plan.

"Before the storm hit" as in, on the 27th?

That would mean you would really need to start moving on the 25th or 26th wouldn't it?

I would point out that by the 28th they were in the evacuation centers in enough numbers to provide "food, shelter, security" requirements. The conditions did not deteriorate until later.

By the way, are you going to send this many personnel into New Orleans every time there's a 20% chance of it being hit by a category 3 hurricane? Without following the usual procedure of the governor asking for it? (Remember, the armed forces have proven to be an essential part of the equation.)

Are you going to create a proportional mobilization for the whole coast under hurricane warnings for a storm 48 hours away?

(I'm guessing 48 hours because we don't know what a reasonable mobilization time is).

quote:

If you've done your homework, and planned for the centers to be there for "the big one" knowing there will be many duds in between, and knowing that the actual full resources will only be used on "the big one"

The problem with that is that it takes precious time to move in "actual full resources" from somewhere else. That's really the point of the discussion. There's plenty of room for soul-searching and improvement over at FEMA these days, but sooner or later you have to realize that resources and mobility are finite, and that this disaster was an order of magnitude greater than what they have had to face in a long time. Or what you would reasonably have expected on the 27th.

You can't practicably send in the kind of resources you need to answer a disaster like this every time a major hurricane is in the Gulf days before landfall.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by RAZD, posted 09-19-2005 10:23 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 09-20-2005 9:56 PM gene90 has responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 278 of 297 (245302)
09-20-2005 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by RAZD
09-16-2005 8:46 PM


Re: Some more points ...
[Quoting RAZD]

quote:
There is a story in the news of an elderly woman who called on her phone Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday saying that the water was rising inside her house and she could not get out and to please send help. On Friday she drowned. They knew the location of the house. That is "later than necessary" with room to spare in my mind.

I am just going to point out that this story has been debunked.

Here is Broussard starting the rumor:

quote:

"The guy who runs this building I'm in, Emergency Management, he's responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home, and every day she called him and said, 'Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?' And he said, 'Yeah, Momma, somebody's coming to get you. Somebody's coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody's coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody's coming to get you on Friday' — and she drowned on Friday night. She drowned on Friday night. Nobody's coming to get us, nobody's coming to get us. The secretary has promised, everybody's promised. They've had press conferences — I'm sick of the press conferences. For God's sake, shut up and send us somebody."


From WikiPedia:

quote:
Subsequent news reports identified the son in the story as Tom Rodrigue, Jefferson Parish's emergency services director. Rodrigue's 92-year-old mother, Eva, lived in the St. Rita's nursing home.[2] It appears from a CNN interview with Rodrigue that he made phonecalls to the nursing home on Saturday, August 27, 2005, and on Sunday, August 28, 2005, urging that the home be evacuated.[3] That evacuation did not take place, and at least 30 residents of the nursing home drowned on Monday, August 29, 2005.[4]

A September 19, 2005, MSNBC story quotes Rodrigue as saying, in response to being told about Broussaard's statements on Meet the Press, "No, no, that's not true." A Broussard spokesperson described Broussard's statements about Rodrigue's mother on Meet the Press as "a misunderstanding." [5]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Broussard

I understand that Negligent Homicide charges are being filed on some owners of nursing homes who did not evacuate their residents. Further, the previous N.O. plan required them to have contracts with busing companies to be able to do so.

The problem with evacuating the elderly is that you commonly have some of them die in transport. So if you get an Ivan or a Lili that doesn't hit New Orleans, it's pointless.

I also thought I would add comments by Donna Brazile. You know, the person that ran Al Gore's 2000 campaign?

quote:
On Thursday night President Bush spoke to the nation from my city. I am not a Republican. I did not vote for George W. Bush -- in fact, I worked pretty hard against him in 2000 and 2004. But on Thursday night, after watching him speak from the heart, I could not have been prouder of the president and the plan he outlined to empower those who lost everything and to rebuild the Gulf Coast....The president has set a national goal and defined a national purpose. This is something I believe with all my heart: When we are united, nothing can stop us. We will not waver, we will not tire, and we will not stop until the streets are clean, every last brick has been replaced and every last family has its home back.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/16/AR2005091602167_pf.html

Posturing?

This message has been edited by gene90, 09-20-2005 06:37 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2005 8:46 PM RAZD has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 279 of 297 (245373)
09-20-2005 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by gene90
09-20-2005 12:42 PM


Re: Some more points ...
msg 277 writes:

Nagin asserting the fact that he is Mayor Nagin and the head of the Federal relief effort ... is overstepping his authority.

And I heard a guy from the state talking about his plans for rebuilding NO ...

All this shows is a complete lack of coordination between the different levels of government, brought about by a complete lack of coordination before the crisis, and during the crisis, the result of a complete lack of coordinated multilevel comprehensive planning to deal with the issue in spite of plentiful knowledge and multiple warnings of the results.

DHS blew it, and now everyone is trying to fill the void of planning and all you get is a chattering of voices (yours and mine ... and Cindy Sheehans included).

Meanwhile Rita shows that no lesson was learned? We'll wait to see what the difference is. I don't expect there to suddenly have been a plan now (too little time) but at least some concept of pre-emptive organisation would be a good start.

I think FEMA/DHS should change the wording of their mission statement.

To something that mirrors action, like "we will follow the path of destruction of whatever comes out way, award no bid contracts to our wealthy and connected friends and leave the poor and the sick out in the cold" ... ?

Let's open another thread to discuss the {actual\proper} role of DHS ... that's another whole can of worms (including if there should even be one).

I hadn't heard about Federal but will take your word for it.

I didn't say there were any, just that you could have them. All you need to do is say that in order for {this specific area} to be fully covered for FEMA relief, these minimum standards need to be included in all new construction for {type(s) of natural disaster applcable to this specific area}. Such as not allowing mobile homes in tornado alley.

I would point out that by the 28th they were in the evacuation centers in enough numbers to provide "food, shelter, security" requirements. The conditions did not deteriorate until later.

Medical teams, security forces, canteen personnel, accomodation assistants? or just evacuees piled on top of each other?

You need to have infrastructure not just empty space and that requires manning. And it has to be enough in advance to be there when the first evacuees show up.

send this many personnel into New Orleans every time there's a 20% chance of it being hit by a category 3 hurricane?

Are you going to create a proportional mobilization for the whole coast under hurricane warnings for a storm 48 hours away?

You know that the cat 3 hurricane is going to hit somewhere, you have a good idea of the center by 48 hrs before, and can refine it in the next 24 ... and yes it would be a pro-active mobilization.

If the storm duds out, you had a training exercise in real-time.

The problem with that is that it takes precious time to move in "actual full resources" from somewhere else. That's really the point of the discussion.

What about stationing the "actual full resources" at the evacuation {centers\bases} so there is no major mobilization required. These could also serve as other uses during "peaceful" times ... such as {schools\stadiums}, {universities\hospitals}, {airports\national guard bases}, {convention centers\hotels} etc etc. The closer they are to the people who need them the easier they will be to {find\use\get to}, and there should be ways to build secure centers in these areas based on all the known dangers that have been experienced or that can be reasonably projected. It comes down to having a plan.

You can't practicably send in the kind of resources you need to answer a disaster like this every time a major hurricane is in the Gulf days before landfall.

I think we can pretty well predict that Rita will cause some damage where it lands. I notice that Galveston is already being asked to evacuate (there's another outer island system made of drifting sand and that is geologically temporary in the face of storms).

There is (or used to be) a place in the gulf of mexico where you can sail up to a pipe sticking out of the water that is gushing fresh water. It used to be a hotel on an outer island (with an artesian well ... all that's left is the pipe from the well).

If you mobilized those resources to Houston now they would be closer to where the storm actually hits, and can move in on the final location as the center moves towards land ...

... or we can wait to see what happens and then send people with no plan of coordinated action.

msg 278 writes:

I am just going to point out that this story has been debunked.

That sounds like a different version of the story, but is does have some of the elements of the proverbial urban myth, I'll agree. That does not, however, mean that no one died due to negligent delay in providing {resources\rescue\aid}, in fact we have at least one evidence of massive neglect, but it's just easier to lay the blame on the owners of the home than anyone else eh?

Further, the previous N.O. plan required them to have contracts with busing companies to be able to do so.

And everybody else washes their hands of the affair. Rather than include this problem in the overall plan we'll make the little guy responsible for making his own arrangements regardless of the fact that these contracts would be pre-empted by authorities at the drop of a hat.

The problem with evacuating the elderly is that you commonly have some of them die in transport. So if you get an Ivan or a Lili that doesn't hit New Orleans, it's pointless.

Of course if you had a pro-active plan you wouldn't have these people in harms way where they would need to be moved. The {hospitals\nursing homes\care centers} that are in the city would be built to take the hurricane, the flooding and the aftermath, or they would be located outside the city limits in a more secure area.

If you planned ahead.

Donna Brazile writes:

...I could not have been prouder of the president and the plan he outlined to empower those who lost everything and to rebuild the Gulf Coast...

Excuse my skepticism, but I will wait to see the actual results and not be lulled by pretty words. I've yet to be "dissappointed" in my expectations from this administration.

The closest so far was when the pres said that he accepted responsibility for the fed mishandling. But, again, all I have so far is that statement. So far there has been no firing of incompetent political sycophants (other than the engineered resignation of brownie -- and there are a lot more in the system). Of course this take the ability to recognize incompetence ....


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by gene90, posted 09-20-2005 12:42 PM gene90 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by gene90, posted 09-21-2005 8:52 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 284 by gene90, posted 09-21-2005 10:07 PM RAZD has responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 280 of 297 (245584)
09-21-2005 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by RAZD
09-20-2005 9:56 PM


Re: Some more points ...
Meanwhile in Houston:

(c/o Michelle Malkin)

And I thought people were saying it couldn't be done?

This message has been edited by gene90, 09-21-2005 08:55 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 09-20-2005 9:56 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by RAZD, posted 09-21-2005 9:04 PM gene90 has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 281 of 297 (245591)
09-21-2005 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by gene90
09-21-2005 8:52 PM


Re: Some more points ...
Didn't say it couldn't be done, just that there was no plan to do it in NO.

But

Why does that last bus look empty?

Are those busses evacuating people or are they just being moved out of harms way?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by gene90, posted 09-21-2005 8:52 PM gene90 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by gene90, posted 09-21-2005 9:18 PM RAZD has responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 282 of 297 (245596)
09-21-2005 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by RAZD
09-21-2005 9:04 PM


Re: Some more points ...
quote:
Are those busses evacuating people or are they just being moved out of harms way?

We'll have to wait and see.

Still, that 'harm's way' part didn't happen in NO.

I haven't replied to your previous post, I think I agree with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by RAZD, posted 09-21-2005 9:04 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by RAZD, posted 09-21-2005 9:22 PM gene90 has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 283 of 297 (245597)
09-21-2005 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by gene90
09-21-2005 9:18 PM


Re: Some more points ...
I see convergence too.

I also think people learned (1) about hurricane damage and (2) how much to trust the {various levels of} government response:

Netscape \CNN News -- Rita Swirls Into 165-Mph Monster in Gulf

About 80 buses began leaving Galveston at midmorning, bound for shelters 100 miles north in Huntsville. Dozens of people lined up, carrying pillows, bags and coolers, to board one of several yellow school buses in the city of 58,000.

``The real lesson (from Katrina) that I think the citizens learned is that the people in Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi did not leave in time,'' said Galveston Mayor Lyda Ann Thomas. ``We've always asked people to leave earlier, but because of Katrina, they are now listening to us and they're leaving.''

Rita, based on its current internal pressure, would be the most intense hurricane ever to strike Texas, stronger even than an unnamed storm that hit Indianola in 1886. Accurate wind speed measurements are not available that far back.

The three Category 5 hurricanes to hit the U.S. mainland are the 1935 Florida Keys hurricane, Camille in 1969 and Andrew in 1992.

Never before has the mainland been hit by two storms of Category 4 or higher in the same year, according to government forecasters.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by gene90, posted 09-21-2005 9:18 PM gene90 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by gene90, posted 09-21-2005 10:07 PM RAZD has not yet responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 284 of 297 (245608)
09-21-2005 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by RAZD
09-20-2005 9:56 PM


Re: Some more points ...
quote:
There is (or used to be) a place in the gulf of mexico where you can sail up to a pipe sticking out of the water that is gushing fresh water. It used to be a hotel on an outer island (with an artesian well ... all that's left is the pipe from the well).

I've heard of that, I think that was off of Biloxi(?)

Right, though, barrier islands are ephemeral. And some of them are mobile.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 09-20-2005 9:56 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by RAZD, posted 09-21-2005 10:14 PM gene90 has not yet responded

gene90
Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 285 of 297 (245609)
09-21-2005 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by RAZD
09-21-2005 9:22 PM


Re: Some more points ...
quote:
I also think people learned (1) about hurricane damage and (2) how much to trust the {various levels of} government response

It'll last fifteen years, tops.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by RAZD, posted 09-21-2005 9:22 PM RAZD has not yet responded

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