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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5945 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Seashells on tops of mountains. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chuck77 Inactive Member
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Wow Coyote. I thought you were better than this. Can we do the same thing with Creationist sites? There is a TON of info I can just quote and then say what you said:
Coyote writes: Given this, I'll stick to evidence and you can play around with logic and religious belief all you want. Here is the message Coyote couldn't deal with on his own:
Message 141 And here is the copy and paste from Coyote:
Message 142 Nice job. It's always refreshing to know when you get stumped there are websites who will corroborate our own interpretation of things. If I ever do this in the future, I hope you'll look at it as good debating Cheers Anyway, i've been going thru this thread: Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? Im currently at your comment now. That thread is closed so I thought i'd bring it up here. I think the sea shells atop mountains is a good argument for the flood too but it can get complicated. If we are allowed to use entire quotes like you did and just say "given this" i'll do just fine in defending my position. When faced with a difficult comment you copied and pasted. I can do that too.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I misunderstood, you only quoted what C wrote instead of the the whole message. confused me which isn't hard.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given. Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Chuck77 Inactive Member |
Hi RAZD,
This is from the other thread the point of this thread is to deal with the rest of the mountain of evidence, evidence that shows multiple sequences of marine growth in several diverse layers throughout the mountains, and often interspersed with sequences of non-marine life in between the layers of marine growth. How does one upheaval explain this? Message 158 Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming? Sorry, this may seen silly to ask but im just asking. Im not done with that thread yet so bear with me.
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Chuck77 Inactive Member |
Try and click the messages I linked. Just give it a shot, it's easy. Move mouse and click.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I did, misunderstood, I edited my original post, my apologies to you Chuck.
"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Chuck77 Inactive Member
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Ok, cool. Im good at confusing people usually.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4175 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined:
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I have admitted I am wrong twice now.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.1
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Hi Chuck,
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming? The problem is that we see plenty of fossils that preserve marine organisms like crinoids and articulate brachiopods; organisms that spent their lives anchored to the sea-bed. We see these fossils in "life assemblages", i.e. they are fossilised in the positions they occupied in life. This could not happen as the result of a flood. Another type of problematic (for creationists) fossil is the trace fossil. There are countless examples of fossilised tracks, footprints, burrows and so on. these are incredibly commonplace. It is very hard to picture how these could have been formed in a flood. This problem is compounded by the fact that there are multiple layers of such fossils. Only one layer can be the flood layer after all. The basic problem for you here is that fossils tend to preserve whole ecosystems, with a range of creatures that inhabited a particular environment. They do not show the jumbled mess that we might expect from a single catastrophic event. Mutate and Survive
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming? That's not very detailed. How do you envisage this happening?
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2136 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Have you any response to the substance of my message?
Fossils on mountain tops are anything but evidence for a global flood. Only one little bit of evidence is needed to show that: the fossils are of vastly different ages from one mountain top to the next. If these fossils were from a single global flood they should date to the same year. They don't.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Yeah I thought it was kind of interesting that he did not address the points.
I am always amazed at how the fundie mind works. Making shit up and blind speculation has much more authority than actual facts and evidence. I am stunned by the attacks here against people that present evidence. The evidence that can be presented here is usually websites. Would Chuckie be more accepting of the evidence if you presented it as your own made up ideas? A debate is not just arguing ones current thoughts and ideas. It is finding and presenting evidence to support your assertions and points.
Chuckie writes:
The problem with this is? Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle PSAnd your source actually had references. Oh no!!, references. They are anathema to fundies. Edited by Theodoric, : punctuation in subtitle Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given. Edited by Theodoric, : Punctuation and sentence alyoutFacts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1019 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined:
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Chuck77 writes:
Absolutely not. Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming? First of all, uplift combined with "catastrophic" flooding of such immense proportions will not deposit anything on the tops of mountains. These two processes together will result in erosional systems, not depositional ones. Therefore, the tops of mountains will lose material to lower elevation and lower energy environments. All your marine fossils I would expect to find in basins in a jumbled, incoherent mess. Instead, we find that fossils all over the planet appear in the same vertical succession and in the same lithologies, regardless of size, density, or shape -- characteristic properties that affect hydraulic sorting. Then, of course, you'd have to explain the presence of fossilized, fully developed paleoreefs we find in a variety of stratigraphic positions all over the planet. All of which have been affected differently due to growth and development under distinct environmental conditions. From AAPG (AAPG Bulletin; October 1999; v. 83; no. 10; p. 1552-1587):
quote:
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Chuck77 Inactive Member
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Ok, thanks roxrkool.
Im fairly confident my question was a silly one. A lot is made of this subject of seashells in Creationist circles. You hear it thrown around a lot. Here is my dillema (if you care). I am not a geologist. I don't have any geologist training or friends who are geologists. I'm a Christian who believes there was a flood. I have these creationists sites that say there was a flood and provide tons of information to say why sea shells etc etc prove a world wide flood. Then, there is the other side. Your side. Tonight after reading what you said, and grandma, i'll (naturally) go look for an explanation that will satisfy me about why your comments arent true. Where does it end? Who should I believe? Maybe it was local? It confusing man. Btw, the sea shells (marine life) argument is not listed in AIG's "arguments not to use" so I thought i'd go ahead and bring it up again ...thanks for the informed reply.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Chuck77,
I think most of the answer has been given, but there is one aspect that is not fully covered by those answers.
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming? If you are thinking that the marine fossils come from actual marine growth in the bottoms of seas, which was then pushed up with the formation of the mountains, then they are not evidence of a flood, but evidence of mountain formation. We see this mountain formation today, still slowly going on. Mt Everest is getting higher, and curiously, the rate of growth it currently has is sufficient to explain it's height in the time that this process has been going on -- according to geology and the evidence in the rocks. Curiously, mountains are not known to be formed by floods, so you need some additional mechanism to explain that. And if the mountains are formed by other means, then why do I need the flood to explain them, and then how is this evidence then for a flood?
... with all of the catastophic events going on ... I haven't seen any documentation on catastropic events -- just rain for 40 days and nights, and the sewers backing up (oh wait that was Bill Cosby ... ) So what "catastrophic events" were involved? Chapter and verse? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Chuck77 Inactive Member |
Thanks RAZD.
So what "catastrophic events" were involved? Chapter and verse? Im gonna speculate that this is one:KJV-Genesis7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. I just a hypothesis RAZD. Probably not even that. I can probably find some more but im not gonna bog down the thread with verses. If there was a world wide flood there would have to be more than just some rain falling for 40 days and nights I think. Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
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