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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design in Universities
JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 13 of 310 (204695)
05-03-2005 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
05-03-2005 2:48 PM


Re: Is it appropriate to teach I.D. and science side by side?
Well, Sal is posting the Word about the Nature article on every available forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 05-03-2005 2:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 172 of 310 (205704)
05-06-2005 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Jerry Don Bauer
05-06-2005 5:35 PM


I see. So the physics of Richard Feynman when he taught us that logical entropy is the way matter is arranged and: "The logarithm of that number of ways is the entropy." Are just not correct, in your opinion?
Feynman was right, you are wrong. Feynman was talking about microstates, you and your references are talking about macrostates. In addition, Boltzmann's formula applies only to a system at constant volume, energy, and composition (and perhaps other constant items, depending on the system). See, e.g., Shuffled Cards, Messy Desks, and Disorderly Dorm Rooms Examples of Entropy Increase? Nonsense! and Note on Entropy, Disorder and Disorganization

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 Message 167 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-06-2005 5:35 PM Jerry Don Bauer has replied

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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 204 of 310 (205892)
05-07-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by mick
05-07-2005 3:41 PM


Now, I must say, I would not describe any of these scientific disciplines as having the goal of "detecting purposeful design in systems and artifacts". In fact all of these disciplines take the intelligent design of their artifacts as a given.
I don't agree. A noticable percentage of the time the first step is to determine whether the object(s) of study are indeed intelligently designed artifacts.
This is presumably the stage at which some ID advocates, such as Sal, claim that the disciplines are using the EF. E.g. Sal wrote in comment 28541 at Dembski's Defense:
quote:
Every successful design detection process is an instance of the EF. To use the EF is equivalently and perhaps more clearly described as using an instance of the EF. The EF faithfully represents ordinary practice.
Of course this is nonsense; scientists trying to detect design in artifacts use a number of techniques, none of which are even vaguely analogous to Dembski's EF. A good example is Middle Stone Age Shell Beads from South Africa (alas, subscription to Science required for now). This is discussed at The Panda's Thumb at A "Design Inference" in Science magazine!:
quote:
But things only get worse for ID advocates. For their design inference, Henshilwood and colleagues chose - not surprisingly - not to apply Dembski's "revolutionary" specified complexity criterion (which would go something like: these look like beads, therefore they are specified, and they are improbable, that is "complex", ergo they are designed), but to rely instead on the good old-fashioned scientific approach.
First, the authors established that the shells likely are actual beads because they display a microscopic wear pattern (likely due to friction) not observed in natural shells, but only in known bead samples. Then they considered the possibility that they may have been carried to the site by animals, and found it unlikely because N. kraussianus' only known predator is another estuarine gastropod, and because all the shells were from adults (a predation model would have predicted multiple age groups). The type of perforation in the shells is also consistent with use as beads, and not predator activity. Finally, remains of ochre were found inside the beads, suggesting they might have been painted, as other known bead samples.
In other words, the authors inferred intelligent agency because they were able to make specific hypotheses about how the perforated shells may have been generated, ruled out the hypotheses that indicated non-human activities, and found empirical confirmation for the hypotheses that pointed to design. Sounds easy, uh? It should be.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 225 of 310 (205973)
05-07-2005 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Parasomnium
05-07-2005 8:46 PM


2LoT applies to essetially all systems
2LOT applies to closed systems only
Oh, and you were doing so well! Some formulations of the 2LoT appear at first glance to apply only to closed systems, but any correct formulation of the 2LoT applies to all systems of sufficient size and over long enough periods of time (the 2LoT being at heart a statistical law), be those systems closed or open.
It is only in closed systems that overall entropy must increase (or stay the same, but in practice that never happens). Even in closed systems entropy can be rearranged to decrease in one part and increase (more) in the rest. In open systems, of course, entropy within the system may increase or decrease (the latter being at the expense of a greater increase in entropy outside the system).

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 Message 223 by Parasomnium, posted 05-07-2005 8:46 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by paisano, posted 05-07-2005 9:32 PM JonF has not replied
 Message 247 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-08-2005 3:18 AM JonF has replied
 Message 254 by Parasomnium, posted 05-08-2005 11:25 AM JonF has replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 253 of 310 (206085)
05-08-2005 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Jerry Don Bauer
05-08-2005 3:18 AM


Re: 2LoT applies to essetially all systems
You are not impressing me with your reading comprehension. I stated that the 2LoT applies to all systems, including open systems. You attempt to contradict me by listing great scientists who applied the 2LoT to open systems. Your examples support my claim.
Make them petition the Nobel Committee to take back Prigogine's Nobel Prize for his work in open system thermodynamics
No need. Prigogine's work is completely compatible with the 2LoT, and is subject to its requirements; his work just requires a significantly more complicated statement of the second law because he's working in non-equilibrium situations.
Also, Nobel winner Schrodinger was simply wrong in his lectures on using S = K log 1/D in the human body because that is an open system.
Nope,he was right. S = K log 1/D is a statement about the quantity of entropy in a system, open or closed, and is a correct statement when the system meets certain requirements, which the human body does over reasonably short periods of time.
But what about Gibb's work in thermodynamics that can calculate so many thermodynamic reactions medically in an open system?
Yup, what about it? Another example of the 2LoT applying to open systems, which is what I said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Jerry Don Bauer, posted 05-08-2005 3:18 AM Jerry Don Bauer has not replied

JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 257 of 310 (206106)
05-08-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Parasomnium
05-08-2005 11:25 AM


Re: 2LoT applies to essetially all systems
Would I be correct in thinking that this is only logical because the ultimate system, the universe, is closed by definition (as far as the input of energy is concerned, anyway), and thus any part of it would have to have its entropy maximized in the long run - the long run being the time left until the heat death of the universe?
It's not sure. We don't know whether the Universe is finite or infinite, and whether or not it makes sense to consider it as closed. We're not even postiive that it isn't open, but it sure seems likely that it is.
Even in closed systems entropy can be rearranged to decrease in one part and increase (more) in the rest.
Could you give an example of that?
Sure. Consider a fairly large room, no windows, with 100% efficient thermal insulation surrounding it on all sides. The system is the room, the boundary is is its boundaries. In that room is an electric generator with a full tank of gas, a dewar of liquid oxygen connected through a vaporization heat exchanger to the intake air filter of the generator, and a refrigerator connected to the electrical output of the generator. A timer starts the generator. The overall entropy increases significatly, the entropy of the oxygen and the generator increases a lot, but the entropy of the contents of the refrigerator goes down.
Maybe you need a compressor and tank, too, to prevent the pressure in the room rising enough to kill the generator .. but I think you see the idea.

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 303 of 310 (206422)
05-09-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Limbo
05-09-2005 10:02 AM


Look people, how many posters do we have around here who know ID and can discuss the details with you? Not many.
Apparently nobody. Certainly not Jerry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Limbo, posted 05-09-2005 10:02 AM Limbo has not replied

Replies to this message:
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