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Author Topic:   What was Godís plan behind Creation and why does he need one?
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 166 of 174 (545543)
02-04-2010 7:20 AM


To the lurkers
Disclaimer!!!!

This is not a comment directed to any poster in particular.

Allow me to share a passage from Darwin himself about sight;

"...if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real." - 'Origin of Species'

I am not comparing myself in any way to Darwin, I just think he stated what I see as a "problem" better than my posts.

He didn't say that it was a problem. He says, as you quoted, that "the difficulty [...] can hardly be considered real."

What he says is insuperably difficult is for people to imagine it happening. He was right about that too.

This is one of the difficulties with discussing evolution: like any area of science there is a need to use precise language. When that language is not read carefully it will be miss-interpreted and erroneous conclusions will be drawn.

Edited by Larni, : Detail

Edited by Larni, : Quotes


    
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 167 of 174 (545706)
02-04-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Larni
02-04-2010 6:59 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Larni writes:

The point is that Yahweh decides that these people need to be punished for no good reason!

Yahweh can do anything; he can achieve his aims without imposing all the horrible things that you say we should 'choose' to eradicate. This implies that it is our fault we can cure the plagues Yahweh plagues us with.

There seems to be two separate situations here;
1) people suffering due to accidents/natural disasters/illness
2) people suffering due to decisions made by themselves or by others.

Is this a fair conclusion?

Also, if you're saying that suffering is caused by God, is the opposite of that true as well? Sure there is suffering in the world, there is also a lot of happiness, even "natural happiness" - did you see the full moon several days ago? OMG! amazing! I understand that this specific conversation can be 'quicksand', I'm just trying to understand your whole position on the topic.

You are correct when you say "Yahweh can do anything", do you really want Him to do everything? Me? I like a good challenge, I like to compete, I like to build things with my own hands. I have failed, my Win-Loss is probably 50-50 and I have hit my thumb more than once. I will keep on keepin' on.

Could God create a world where there is no suffering? no pain? no death? Yes He can and that is what Jesus said He was going to go do.

This earth has suffering, this creation has trial, this world has temptation, in this universe WE get to decide whether we will accept God or reject Him. Do you think God suffers when somebody rejects Him?

I do NOT mean to imply that this is some sort of tit-for-tat relationship - ie Yahweh decides that if somebody rejects Him, thereby causing Him to suffer, that He will unleash some natural disaster. I'm saying that God created this world with endless possibilities and consequences.

I think we can agree that if a pharmaceutical company developed a cure for some illness but didn't make it available, that would be 'our' fault. Likewise, if a car company knew about a design defect that had proven to be fatal, but decided it would be cheaper to pay attorneys/lawsuits then to recall a million cars, that too would be 'our' fault.

Edited by 3DSOC, : spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Larni, posted 02-04-2010 6:59 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Larni, posted 02-09-2010 6:06 AM 3DSOC has not yet responded

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 168 of 174 (545707)
02-04-2010 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2010 4:15 AM


Re: Eye Evolution
Dr Adequate writes:

Yes. We can see a whole range of eyes in nature, from the simplest to the most complex. In some cases we can see the whole range within a single phylum --- mollusks are the usual example, but this is also true of jellyfish.

The fossil record proves that these graduations exist?

Concluding that a species which possesses complex eyes must have evolved because some other species has simple eyes does not prove that the graduations exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2010 4:15 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2010 10:05 PM 3DSOC has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 169 of 174 (545708)
02-04-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by 3DSOC
02-04-2010 9:52 PM


Re: Eye Evolution
The fossil record proves that these graduations exist?

Darwin --- and I --- were actually talking about gradations found in nature today. They prove the proposition that there are organs of vision, varying in complexity, which are useful to their possessors, and so show in principle that a complex eye could have evolved.

However, since you ask, yes, a progression can be seen in the fossil record, for example in the chordates. Pikaia and Haikouella had eye spots, conodonts and agnathans had primitive eyes (as do living agnathans), and "higher" chordates (e.g. bony fish) have lensed eyes. I guess this is something I should add to the article.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by 3DSOC, posted 02-04-2010 9:52 PM 3DSOC has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by 3DSOC, posted 02-05-2010 8:17 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 170 of 174 (545761)
02-05-2010 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2010 10:05 PM


Re: Eye Evolution
excerpt from article titled "An early Cambrian craniate-like chordate"
"But Haikouella also has several additional anatomic features: a heart, ventral and dorsal aorta, an anterior branchial arterial, gill filaments, a caudal projection, a neural cord with a relatively large brain, a head with possible lateral eyes, and a ventrally situated buccal cavity with short tentacles."
- Jun-Yuan Chen, Di-Ying Huang, & Chia-Wei Li

Has the analysis of this fossil record changed?

It is my understanding that the chordate fossil record is relatively poor, hence the "possible lateral eyes". Do you have another example? Does the fossil record of man prove these gradations?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2010 10:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 02-05-2010 9:05 AM 3DSOC has responded
 Message 173 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-05-2010 10:19 PM 3DSOC has not yet responded

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3106 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 171 of 174 (545769)
02-05-2010 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by 3DSOC
02-05-2010 8:17 AM


Re: Eye Evolution - OFF TOPIC!
Hi 3DSOC

I think your recent discussion about the evolution of the eye is off topic.

This topic is not related to evolution at all, but to creation. What was God's plan behind creation and why did he need one?

If you wish to discuss the evolution of the eye, please either start or join another topic.

Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by 3DSOC, posted 02-05-2010 8:17 AM 3DSOC has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by 3DSOC, posted 02-05-2010 3:39 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not yet responded

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 172 of 174 (545820)
02-05-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
02-05-2010 9:05 AM


Re: Eye Evolution - OFF TOPIC!
Jumped Up Chimpanzee,

I do apologize for taking up so much of this discussion thread with a tangent topic - I will not carry on the evolution discussion here any longer.

As to your original question, as I previously stated, I don't have an answer. Or at least any answer I give would be strictly my opinion and would have very little (if any) fact to support it.

~3DSOC

Edited by 3DSOC, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 02-05-2010 9:05 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 173 of 174 (545885)
02-05-2010 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by 3DSOC
02-05-2010 8:17 AM


Re: Eye Evolution
excerpt from article titled "An early Cambrian craniate-like chordate"
"But Haikouella also has several additional anatomic features: a heart, ventral and dorsal aorta, an anterior branchial arterial, gill filaments, a caudal projection, a neural cord with a relatively large brain, a head with possible lateral eyes, and a ventrally situated buccal cavity with short tentacles."
- Jun-Yuan Chen, Di-Ying Huang, & Chia-Wei Li

Has the analysis of this fossil record changed?

I don't quite see your point. I didn't say that any of them had no eyes, but that some of them had primitive eyes.

It is my understanding that the chordate fossil record is relatively poor ...

No. The chordates include all vertebrates. We've got quite a lot of them.

Do you have another example? Does the fossil record of man prove these gradations?

Good grief. Of course not. All mammals have proper lensed eyes. Can you picture an australopithecine with eyespots?

---

Anyway, we are way off-topic, so if you want to learn more about eyes, you'll have to start a new thread. Or there are books, of course ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by 3DSOC, posted 02-05-2010 8:17 AM 3DSOC has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 174 of 174 (546178)
02-09-2010 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by 3DSOC
02-04-2010 9:44 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
I think we can agree that if a pharmaceutical company developed a cure for some illness but didn't make it available, that would be 'our' fault.

Don't you see? Yahweh could cure all the horrible diseases if he so wished. He could have gone one step further and not invented them at all.

When Yahweh invented disease, what was he thinking? Apart from making life shorter and more miserable, what possible reason could he have had?

You miss the point here: everything is ultimately your Gods fault: and yes that includes the good bits. So what we have is Yahweh looking down on us and assigning good and bad happenstance to difference people based on some criteria only he is privy to becuase guess what? Innocent people come off just as bad as wicked people in this life.

I like a good challenge, I like to compete, I like to build things with my own hands. I have failed, my Win-Loss is probably 50-50 and I have hit my thumb more than once. I will keep on keepin' on.

How does that compare with a baby dying at child birth through no fault of it's own or the stirling efforts of the medics trying to save him?

Competing is so far off the point (as with the previous poster on this very thread who I'm having almost exactly the same conversation with (have you read all the thread?).

Edited by Larni, : More incredulity


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by 3DSOC, posted 02-04-2010 9:44 PM 3DSOC has not yet responded

    
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