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Author Topic:   Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 817 of 991 (708757)
10-14-2013 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by NoNukes
09-09-2013 7:37 PM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
4500 years ago there weren't 7 billion people to work with.
And your calculation is foobar anyway. The people on earth are diverse, but they aren't that diverse.
How do you know we are not that diverse? It is pretty obvious that the more people we sequence, the more variation we will find at each DNA location.
And I agree that 4500 years ago the population would have been smaller, I was merely illustrating how many alleles have been recently aded. So the argument some may make that there are too many alleles to reflect 4500 years of mutating is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2013 7:37 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 818 of 991 (708758)
10-14-2013 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by NoNukes
09-09-2013 12:09 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
This is ridiculous, and is an example of why any evidence based discussion with you is pointless.
Nobody is forgetting that animals were able to adapt quickly in hot, low oxygen conditions because such hasn't been established as a fact to forget. (And apparently adapt must mean something different from evolve) And when you talk about "rapidly adapting into subspecies after admitting to knowing next to nothing at all about biology, should we even take your arguments seriously? Which major predator did the salt-water crocodile evolve (er adapt) into?
Apparently what makes sense to you is to make up any nonsense explanation however non Biblical, and then to insist that someone else has to demonstrate your made up stuff to be wrong using evidence
By just saying something is ridiculous, does not really make any point. It is not at all ridiculous that after a modern terrestrial flood, marine turtles and marine crocodiles could dominate the terrestrial landscape until other terrestrial animals migrate into the flooded region.
In the Triassic there was the lystrosaurus, which had arguably a hippo-like amphibuous lifestyle, and yet in the early Triassic was terrestrial. It makes perfect sense that an animal that could swim, would survive the flood in more numbers than animals restricted to an ark. I believe this explains early Triassic fauna.

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 Message 471 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2013 12:09 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 820 of 991 (708760)
10-14-2013 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by NoNukes
09-02-2013 9:41 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
You don't know if God intervened? So you don't know whether the following statement was made by God?
quote:
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Or this one:
quote:
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
You practice a strange version of Bible inerrancy. The difference between what the Bible states and what you believe certainly dwarfs any of the differences Tangle and I have discussed in what Genesis literally says
I believe the phrase "cause it to rain" could be consistent with the use of natural processes.
God could cause it to rain by stirring up tectonic processes that result in volcanic induced rainfall. God could cause it to rain by stirring up tectonic processes at the moment Adam sinned in the garden, that generally resulted in a less stable earth. Or God could have relied on 100 % natural processes. Or 100% miraculous processes. For the purpose of a scientific discussion, I am looking at natural processes and not miraculous processes to explain the flooding.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 821 of 991 (708761)
10-14-2013 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by NoNukes
09-02-2013 3:29 AM


So what's your argument?
My argument was merely to point out that we all have no idea of what ratio of animals would have been on the ark if we do not know which were clean and which were unclean. Therefore the argument some are promoting that the predator/prey ratio was too high is not a good argument if there are too many unknowns to support the point.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 822 of 991 (708762)
10-14-2013 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 784 by NoNukes
10-10-2013 6:06 PM


Re: Geology is irrelevant; try addressing the topic.
Do you understand that as far as the date of the flood is concerned, that the P-T boundary is still a factor of 2,000 beyond the compressed dates you think correspond to the flood? Want to try this one again?
There are basically 4 timeframes at work:
1) The carbon dating timeframe
2) the radiometric dating timeframe
3) The archaeological history timeframe
4) The evolutionary assumptions timeframe (loosely based on evolutionary trees, and assumptions about phylogenetic relationships, and locked into the first two timeframes)
I believe each is out by a differing scale.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2013 6:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 823 of 991 (708765)
10-14-2013 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by vimesey
10-14-2013 7:29 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
Ooh, even I, as a non-expert, can have a go at this one.
Even if we assume that your unevidenced conjecture is correct, and that a global flood (caused in a relatively gentle fashion by constant rainfall, as opposed to the violence of, say, a tsunami) killed off all marine life in the location of the flooding, how the hell does that mean there would be no marine fossils ???
This may come as news to you, but I can guarantee to you that before it became a fossil, every single fossil was the dead body of a creature or plant ! They were no more ! They had ceased to be ! They had expired and gone to meet their maker ! They were stiffs ! Bereft of life and resting in peace ! If they hadn't sunk to the bottom they'd be pushing up the daisies ! Their metabolic processes were history ! They were off their current ! They'd kicked the bucket, shuffled off their mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible ! They were ex-plants and animals !!!
And just to join up the dots for you - if (and I'm assuming the "if" for argument) a global flood managed to kill all marine life, we would have had an absolute ton of dead marine bodies to form fossils !
Being dead does not remove your body, does it ?
Bodies eventually sink. The flood took months to reach peak levels. There was a great marine die off at the PT boundary, but this could have happened just after the terrestrial extinctions as the meltwaters warmed up and after the marine regression.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by vimesey, posted 10-14-2013 7:29 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by vimesey, posted 10-14-2013 8:52 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 824 of 991 (708766)
10-14-2013 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 770 by NoNukes
10-10-2013 8:28 AM


Re: Geology is irrelevant; try addressing the topic.
Apparently you believe that the argument is not over until your nose is so rubbed into it that even you can cannot admit you do not smell the odor. For me at least that is not true. For me the argument ends favorably when you don't even try anymore to use evidence based argument; when you misread scientific articles in a deliberate fashion; when you avoid the arguments counter to your proposition; and when you cherry pick the questions you deign to answer. We're way past that point.
No deliberate cherry picking, I just don't get around to answering some posts then forget about them because I'm concentrating on current stuff. Sorry about that, I still haven't answered your posts 135, 279, 396, 695, 756 but I feel we have mostly covered those points, its mainly about carbon dating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 770 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2013 8:28 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2013 9:25 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 826 of 991 (708769)
10-14-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by bluegenes
09-22-2013 7:36 PM


Re: Brief Comments about the Nature of Evidence
You don't need to make mistakes about the papers you haven't yet understood on two different threads. Go to the correct thread, and make your mistakes there. Tell us why the authors somehow forgot to compare the "Y" of individual "A" to any others
The problem for your view is that thousands of people do read these threads, and they can read the links for themselves. So a couple of evolutionists egging eachother on does not make your interpretation of the links better than my interpretations of the links, the public is reading for themselves.

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Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 827 of 991 (708770)
10-14-2013 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by bluegenes
09-10-2013 4:48 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
You mean Y Adam. There has to be a Y Adam at some point in history (genetic drift makes it inevitable), so your model couldn't be falsified by a lack of one. Rather, it's a question of when.
As I say, it's inevitable, apart from the order which could be either way. In fact, a recent discovery Message 7 shows that the order is the other way around. That discovery also means that I'm being generous in my last post when I say that your model requires ~30 mutations per. generation on the Y chromosome alone. It's really more than double that!
I can see this point from an evolutionary perspective. Nevertheless recent human genetic bottlenecks do specifically support the biblical perspective as well. (by recent I mean <13000 methods)

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 833 of 991 (708783)
10-14-2013 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Granny Magda
09-10-2013 10:46 AM


Re: The flood story (getting pretty off the topic core)
Stop trying to weasel out of your mistake by putting words in my mouth.
You claimed that Ararat was on the Arabian Plate. You got that wrong, along with much else. Grow a spine and admit your errors.
I said the "relevant portion of Turkey described by the bible is the Arabian plate".
You replied "no its not". At that stage I was not referring to Mt Ararat, I was referring to the "relevant portion of Turkey" and so I was not weaseling out of anything.
Doesn't say that it's on the Arabian Plate though does it? The uplift was caused by the plates colliding, but Ararat is still part of the Anatolian block.
You are correct, Mt Ararat is on the Anatolian block.
No, it absolutely does not mean that. It simply means that your theory is wrong.
The Bible is talking about Mt Ararat, the same Mt Ararat that we see today. The reason that your PT Flood fantasy doesn't align with the Bible is because your theory is wrong. But instead of admitting this, you blame the Bible.
.
This is what the bible says, I cherry picked some translations to illustrate my point:
Wycliff bible:
4 And the ship rested in the seventh month, in the seven and twentieth day of the month, on the hills of Armenia.
NIV:
4 The ship rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on Ararat’s mountains.
Douay:
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, the seven and twentieth day of the month, upon the mountains of Armenia.
The truth is that your notion of human settlement on the Arabian Plate is nonsensical. That plate has been flooded many times over. It was flooded in the Triassic, it was underwater during the Jurassic, it was underwater during the Cretaceous. The very notion of human habitation there starting in the Triassic is ludicrous! The reason why your theory doesn't fit the tectonic evidence, doesn't fit the fossil evidence, doesn't fit the Biblical narrative, etc, is because your theory is wrong. It's really that simple
In what manner does my theory not fit the biblical narrative?
As for the repeated flooding, please put forward your evidence of the entire plate, including the levant, being flooded during the Cretaceous.
The Biblical narrative has birds as one of the Earliest creatures. The reality is that there are no bird fossils before the Jurassic. To prove your theory, you need to show evidence that birds existed before the PT boundary; not just immediately prior to it, but going back hundreds of millions of years before it. You have provided no rationale for this, not even one of your trademark excuses.
I am not trying to prove a flood. Just quell the notion that the biblical flood has been disproven. The birds would have been in the more moderate northern latitudes at higher altitudes before the PT boundary. Insects dominated the lower latitudes. After the PT boundary they would have been restricted to tiny populations in Turkey and the Levant during the Triassic/Jurassic. Under compressed timeframes not enough fossils to show during the Triassic/Jurassic.
I already posted a link that showed that some scientists predict a pre-boundary biome in northern latitudes similar to modern biomes, containing origins of modern organisms so the concept is not absurd.
No you haven't. that is a misrepresentation of the studies cited, which only deal with plants. You need to do better than that.
I agree that the studies only dealt with plants, I wasn't deliberately trying to misrepresent those studies.
My point is that the concept of a pre-boundary biome containing modern flora is already supported by some scientists. I am saying that under compressed timeframes, its possible that same biome could have contained modern fauna, not just modern flora.
Are you having memory problems? I have already showed you that this is a fantasy
The Siberian plateau is largely covered by basalt rock, and is relatively under researched because of remoteness. This is the reality.
Sorry squire, but scientific enquiry doesn't work like that.
It's not "Prove me wrong or I'm right by default!". You have to prove your own theories right by providing solid positive evidence. If you can't do that, then you have nothing but hot air.
Fine, I can't prove that is where the pre-flood human fossils are, this is not the purpose of my participation in this thread. I am just saying that if you want to disprove humans before the PT boundary, this is where you would have to look for human fossils.
Some ancient myths eg Vedas, place the origin of mankind in Siberia. Once again, this is not any evidence, just something to think about......
The problem for you is that your theory demands a total wipe-out of life, followed by a radiation from a single point. That is directly contradicted by the existence of terrestrial life, all over the world, going right through the PT boundary. No wipe-out. No radiation. Even in the very earliest Triassic, there are terrestrial organisms - and not just amphibians or reptiles, but plants, invertebrates, and more - spread out, all across the world. That is the direct opposite of what your theory predicts. Time to grow up and admit that the evidence does not match your silly Flood theory.
The world shows some life directly after the Pt boundary, worldwide. This is mainly reptiles of amphibous habits, and various plants . I have already shown that various plant seeds can survive the flood. And then there is radiation from the MiddleEast/Africa (and India). The radiation is basically from northeast Gondwanaland to the rest of the world. The very criticism is the theory's very strength, reality of the fossil record is exactly what we would expect. As is mitochondrial DNA analysis, and more recently Y-chromosome DNA analysis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Granny Magda, posted 09-10-2013 10:46 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 834 of 991 (708785)
10-14-2013 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 825 by JonF
10-14-2013 8:40 AM


Re: Geology is irrelevant; try addressing the topic.
You forgot the stratigraphic time scale.
Fair enough. The misunderstanding that rocks have to take millions of years to form, and that stratigraphy represents millions of years of sediment.

This message is a reply to:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 836 of 991 (708787)
10-14-2013 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 831 by NoNukes
10-14-2013 9:25 AM


Re: Geology is irrelevant; try addressing the topic.
When I refer to cherry picking, I am referring to not answering the most important questions in the post you chose to respond. I am also referring to your cherry picking of information from the references you cite. Claiming that your reference put a few hundred year date on the cheetah bottleneck, or ignoring that another reference cites dates of > 60000 years because you like the way it counts mutations is the kind of cherry picking I refer to here. You continue to talk about rats and birds sneaking on the ark, when nobody has raised the issue of rats and birds having a bottleneck.
I believe I go straight for the most significant issues. I dealt with the cheetah issue, showing where I got the short term bottleneck from, and also dealing with the 10 000 year bottleneck which is according to mainstream timeframes. None of this challenges my view because of expanded timeframes.
Because I am dealing with a lot of posts, I have to get supporting information very rapidly and may sometimes misread the info, this is not deliberate cherry picking or misinformation, but due to time pressure. It is self defeating to post inaccurate information, I am merely human. Not that I was wrong on the cheetah issue, on careful analysis there was that recent bottleneck in both cheetah populations.
As for the genetic study, Bluegenes needs to acknowledge some facts there. No cherry picking there, I have posed a lot of questions, he has answered a few of them, and has not answered a few more. I am finding holes in his argument, that is what a debate is about.

This message is a reply to:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 837 of 991 (708789)
10-14-2013 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 828 by vimesey
10-14-2013 8:52 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
Well, once again, we have utterly unevidenced conjecture. But quite apart from that, this isn't what you said in response to Granny Magda's point is it ? There, you said that the flood brought inland with it the non-surviving marine life.
I don't recall saying anything even remotely like that, can you refer me to a post please. And could you please give me more than conjecture of where and when and why the marine life would die, and at what speed and why the bodies would float inland during a marine transgression. If the glaciation is on the landmass, it makes more sense to me that water would be travelling away from the landmass and not towards it, even at higher sea levels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 828 by vimesey, posted 10-14-2013 8:52 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by vimesey, posted 10-14-2013 11:06 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 839 by vimesey, posted 10-14-2013 11:20 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 840 of 991 (708792)
10-14-2013 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 829 by NoNukes
10-14-2013 9:11 AM


Re: Geology is irrelevant; try addressing the topic.
Actually, I think your statement of belief is wrong. You don't actually have anything like an organized belief about this stuff other than that you do not accept scientific dating. The various dating systems have correlate between them anyway, so that it is simply not possible for your belief to be something you've thought through while considering the evidence.
But worst of all, your purported explanation does not address the question you've created and that I've asked.
If you want to show that I am wrong then tell me which scientific scheme it is that you believe gives a 130,000 year date for the P-T boundary? That is after all the scientific date that you are claiming maps to the flood date, right?
And of course there is no such dating system.
Let me get to this in the dating forum. I will possibly participate this week. Regarding carbon dating I have a loose set of ideas, regarding radiometric dating I have a definite mechanism that falsifies it, and regarding archaeology I prefer Rohl's revised dating to mainstream Egyptology.
I dont have a specific dating system of my own, admittedly I do rely on the bible which has been proved accurate date-wise through Rohl's revised dating. The familiarity of many early civilizations with Triassic/Jurassic fauna, including Gobekli Tepe, Egypt, Pompeii and Angkor Watt adds to this Further methods are to look at rates of sedimentation to get approximate dates for example the Mississipi valley. (going back to the Triassic/Jurassic)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2013 9:11 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 847 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2013 3:28 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2690 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 841 of 991 (708793)
10-14-2013 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 838 by vimesey
10-14-2013 11:06 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
There is no reason to believe any marine life would have survived the inland travel during the temporary marine incursion
That is saying that the flood brought inland with it the non-surviving marine life.
As for asking for more than conjecture as to where and when the marine life would have died, let me remind you that it was your conjecture in the first place that the marine life died at all in the flooded areas. You go first with the evidence, therefore. I am all ears.
Haha no I was not saying that their bodies would have survived,k I didn't intend to imply that. Maybe my wording is ambiguous so I don't blame you for reading that into the wording, but certainly was not what I meant.
I don't believe much marine life would have made it onto the land at all, I believe the melting was happening on the landmass of Pangea, and water was flowing outwards from the landmass. Thus the water wasn't very saline, and there was more chance of terrestrial carcasses flowing outward, than marine carcasses flowing inward.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by vimesey, posted 10-14-2013 11:06 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
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