Evolution and Specialness of Humanity

If it's any consolation, universally you can be insignificant without evolution. This is observed in reality, because you will be a victim just like the antelope, if you dare to tread the lion's path.Biologically, not liking the fact doesn't mean it isn't true. This is what I had to realise. The only thing stopping belief in scientific fact, is tough dogma. When you study enough, you'll realise that a intellectual skeptic would never convert to Christianity and especially not literalism. This is why in my experience, I've never heard of a smart atheist/agnostic becoming a believer. You've just got to learn why. It's because they're right, that's all.We are very small and insignificant beings, universally, if evolution wasn't true. Logically, this means we can deduce that this isn't evolution's fault.I disagree about the nihilist notions you're equating with evolution.Even Dawkins admitted that we need purpose. It's not for the want of it. If Shraff wants to believe, then how is her desire to believe going to affect truth? No matter how much we want something to be true, that won't make it true.My disagreement with evolution was what caused me to hate it so much, and be angry to EvCers who were infact helping me. Then I woke up agnostic/evolutionist and guess what? Everything was the same. If love is with you now, it would be if you were atheist aswell. I get the same feeling of universal acceptance as when I was a true believer. That's because the universe knows I'm not obliged to act in any way other than what my conscience dictates, as that is what it has endowed me with.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-14-2005 08:24 AM

Thanks Ned. If it's any consolation, I withold some hope in JC, but I have to admitt a "without NOT" position, agnostic, in that I do not know, and am somewhat confused about it all.I think it's not just the evolution issue that has made me have big doubts. It's religion as a whole. Not to get off topic, but basically I am un-changed personality -wise, whereas I thought being without God would change me. Whether this is a conversion to a full atheistic position I don't know. I just have had big doubts lately, for logical reasons.

Hi Shraff. I'm fine thanks, I hope you're doing okay too, refuting fundies.. I think it is. Lots I know seem to attribute their own good works to God. Often when they do a good thing, or receive something, they are either grateful to God or say the good work is God's because they are sinful. (I believed you mentioned about being grateful to God instead of doctors, a while back - a typical example).However, in my more "atheist-days", of which I had a few, I infact done the same "good things" I've always done, without such a big belief in God. I guess in the past I couldn't believe I could do a good thing because of "sin". (But the biggest factor of my more skeptical position now, is the notion of hell). I'm so glad u like it, the sucker was painstaking.The films seem to get more dark each time, and I definitely look forward to 4. The sequels have all been good don't you think?

What say ye, canst thou open a topic and fight this issue out with tentative-mike? But her logic is 100% accurate. She even has the downpat on her character's history. The bible is a bad compilation at best. I could do better with Tina Turner, Metallica and a barbie winamp skin. No seriously, I've nothing against Jesus, I just don't think that he'd send Shraff and the likes to hell for not opening her door to fundies and taking the outrageous position of honest objective research. Man she's evil.

Thanks for those kind words, NWR and Asgara. I know that in the past I sounded similar to Prophex, so that's great character you're showing to immediately defend me like that, as I was very religious and stubborn for a long time.Prophex, it's true that christ's words are impressive. But you're not looking at the reasons I meet any character's words with skepticism. I withold some hope in Christ, because I am impressed with his actions, and everything he was about. I shall deal with you in my next post you naughty boy.

I wouldn't say that God is lost on me as a concept. I am just not insistant upon stubbornly declaring an anthropomorphic entity as true. Nor do I find the concept of hell logical in the least. Infinite torture for finite crimes.Holding on to the rudimentary and childish concept of the superior being, would be to never grow up. The honest position is to admitt I don't know anything, as our friend Phatboy had the wisdom to.If I approach "God" from the premise that I am willing to find out about him, then I don't see how he could throw me in hell. Infact I'm not so greedy as to ask to live more than the normal finite period of the average mammal-species. I'm even happy if God exists and when I die it's the end of me. Afterall, humans have proved that they're more selfish than any other species, so I fail to see why we should be a special case for living in pearly heaven.I don't believe in evolution because of the populas. That would be the fallacy of appeal to popularityIt's form; X is claimed. Because Group Y belief in X, X is the case.Infact, it's my desire to understand logic and science via independent inquiry, that let's me know that the majority aren't fooling me. That's the thing, you can actually check out their arguments if you excersize your brain, which is remarkabley cunning, and can increase in intelligence by simply thinking.It's not just evolution that let me to doubt though. It's the fact that even religion is a ludicrous anthropomorphic and ancient practice, based on the fallacy of the God of the gaps. If God's so great, she'll allow my fellow-EvCers into heaven before me, like I request. If she doesn't, then she's petty, and can't be anything like the Christ I've heard about, who doesn't judge people, and forgives sins. Infact I hope he's female, because females seem to not be sadistic tyrants on the whole.Yet evolutionists don't have any claims on truth, nor do they demand that we heed some kind of absolute. That's the whole point. They tentatively conclude. They don't have absolutes. Absolutes are the biggest stumbling block ever!Religion is the opposite. It claims absolute truth. But since there are so many religions, that's a lot of falsehoods. Indeed, more than 99.9% percent atleast.I read Crashfrog's accurate thoughts about this when he said something about science being tentative, and not guaranteeing even the most solid of theories as "true". It strikes me that when people claim to have the patent on truth, they're seldom correct. What allows you to infer they are "God-given"?I had a great love for lil babas and such. They're so innocent. Guess what? I still do. Turns out the goodness was in me, whether I believed or not. If there is an evolutionary reason for my fondness of innocent creatures such as these, it might be because of propegation of the species, to survive. Just like another species might care about their young, fondly. That's just reality. It doesn't take away from my enjoyment when I see happy babas having fun with their parents.your god doesn't mind burning babas for misdemeanors his parents committed. Like failing to get the M.O.T on their car, or smoking ciggarettes. False dichotomy. I can't believe any kind of truth would be limited to two choices. Only man makes categories, God, she doesn't do that. that's why the simpletons in the NT say that if you disbelieve you go to hell, and if you believe you'll be saved.And Jesus might surprise you, as he was careful to mention those who don't boast. He said those who claim righteousness, are not the acceptable ones, but rather the contrite, that refrain from judging others. People like these here at EvC, who tirelessly campaign to shed ignorance from the young minds that wallow in it.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-15-2005 12:56 PM

Thanks Jar and RAZD and others, for your words.I also welcome back Buz.

Buzsaw has been given his posting privelidges back, He's Abbyleever. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-16-2005 12:25 PM

I think Ned just doesn't want any unsupported statements about the actual ToE and what it actually deals with. Sometimes (in my experience), creo's can be a little vague, and avoid clear questioning. Firstly, science only works from evidence. Deciding if you think there is an unseen force at work is the individual's discresion. If they were to believe "God" as a preset dogma in the fabric of their logical construct, then they would be assuming an outside force, of which there is no evidence of.Secondly, in reference to your "social implication": HereAs you can see, any social implications are irrelevant to the fact. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-17-2005 08:20 AM

Any. Call it X.X is not false because you don't like it's implications. It takes the form of appeal to consequences, or a slippery slope--> (If X is true then this that and the other will happen).You seemed to admitt the evidence favours evolution, earlier on. Your argument seems to be your mere dislike of the fact. I was guilty of this myself, previously, I just couldn't admitt it. For me that's a compliment.To you, I'm guessing you see this as a negaive thing. That's understandable, as I suppose I am "lost" now. From your position, I would, if I was a believer, be thinking; "Oh no, he's lost to the world and hell etc".If it's any consolation, I'm still [m]ike. It was unintentional if I changed from C to E, but the benefits seem to be that of being let out of prison. If I am pitted against you now, it's because my mind has evolved over 6-10 months. I'm still everyone's bud though, even if I disagree over issues. That's the great thing about rational endeavours, they're un-emotional.

Nothing. It's a good logical example.But how special is special anyway?In the end, my special feelings for skydaddy dried up like a turd, and became a depressing circle of empty and desperate rationalisation on behalf of him, which required all my psychological energy. So infact "special" became unhealthy. What a mind-job. False hopes can be dangerous.How special is special anyway? You can have the most wonderful feeling ever experienced, but if someone dropped a brick on your toe, then the pain would probably be a more intense experience, and right then, all you would be concentrating on is the intense natural agony of your rapidly ballooning toe. Your case is a good one; Shit happens. Prophex just needs to realize this fact.Special's okay, but it's all bullshit in the end, as we're ants on a matchstick, sailing in the pacific ocean. Enjoy it already. You're too young for contemplating all this crap Prophex. Why the hell should you have to figure it all out anyway? You need to check out your size man.You're a dot on a piece of paper ten sqillion miles².

Forgive my more nihilist previous post. It paints an innacurate position of my own.I don't agree life is worthless, or not special. I think it all is.When astronomers look at the stars for us, they seldom find a population of habitable planets. Therefore, it's reasonable to atleast assume we're a pretty rare phenomenon.If I went into nature now, and it was a sunny day, and I could see the crisp peaks of the mountains, the sun on the sea, as it, in the distance, fades into a glorious eternal haze, then I would be in heaven. This feeling, is not fake if there is no God, That is just stupid. This feeling is proven as real, whereas God is a true vacuous statement; a tautology at best. If I believe in God, I'll go to heaven.So my pantheist-type feeling, is very valid indeed, and very special because it's real, and not based on a fairy story.I feel this way around nature, because I am nature. I am conscious nature. I breathe it in, and breathe it out(nature), and I'll always be a part of it, whether I'm dead or alive, as I always was a part of it, in some other genetic form, previously, right down the line to the beginning.For me, this nature is my heaven, and I don't mind dying that much, as if I did, then my feeling would be small and childish if it didn't recognise something more than itself; as the feeling will be worth even more, if in reality, it lasts forever.Maybe you call your special feeling Christ. Now that's okay -- that's your belief, and I should have conceded that earlier on.But this is my own path. Yours is yours. As Jar says, it's ajourney, and I hope yours is prosperous, and I wish you luck, and will now stop bothering you with posts. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-20-2005 09:48 AM

It's amazing really, what the mind is capable of, and how bleak you can make a Godless scenario. Less afraid of nihilism, or a universe without God? Or being unprotected by God? (It's okay, if it's private don't answer).

You sound similar to me, which is no bad thing. But yes, the "consequences of disbelief" are quite false. If pepsi tasted good when you had belief, it does when you disbelieve.Can you believe I had to learn that from experience?

Well, human wisdom and experience is all we have to go on isn't it?What makes you believe, absolutely?Would you say you know God exists, or that you don't know? I personally think it's unknowable. I made my subjective experiences open to objective unbiased analysis, and they can be refuted. But now I'm not so sure they're worth anything objectively. Like describing chocolate instead of tasting it. Hence if I say I am agnostic, it's that I find God unknowable, yet have chosen to believe again. (although this is still a big change for me, as all religious- adherence is gone, and I admitt my belief, if that's what it's described as, is not really backed up evidence-wise. But that's okay.Does this answer your recent interest and confusion about my position?