Human Rights

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How did the zygote get there?

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Probably through intercourse.Who owns the uterus, rat?According to you, it's the zygote, not the woman.

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You act as if some alien abducted her and impregnated her.

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Er, not I don't. I know perfectly well how pregnancy occurs.Consenting to have sex is not the same as consenting to being pregnant.

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Your point is mute in this discussion, I have said like three times already, that a woman owns her womb. What she does with it, is none of my business.

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If you really believe this, then why won't you shut the fuck up about abortion?Look, you say the above, but it is just so many words. Everything else you have said in this thread makes it abundantly clear that you DO, very very much, think it is your business what women do with their own uteruses, and that the moment they becomes pregnant, they suddenly do not get to control all aspects of their organs anymore.

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Finally someone answers that question.

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So when a man rapes her, he violates that right, but when a woman gives herself up willingly, she hasn't given up that same right?

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When a man rapes a woman, her right to body autonomy has been violated.When she chooses to have sex willingly, she hasn't given up any rights.When a woman is raped or has consentual intercourse, and becomes pregnant as a result, she has the right to decide if she wants to remain pregnant or not.HOW she became pregnant is completely, utterly, and totally irrelevant to her right to body autonomy.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.Consenting to sex and consenting to be pregnant are not the same thing.

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If I do anything at all to myself, that can include some kind of consequence, do I really have a right to correct it, or is it just a privilage.

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If you are injured or sick, you have the right to medical care, regardless of how you became sick or injured....at least, in civilized places this is the case.

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I did to myself, I deserve it. I deserve anything that becomes of it, whether it can be fixed or not.

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How punitive and judgemental you are, rat. Are shame and guilt a big part of your life? Can't people make mistakes in your world without self-hatred and blame and punishment?

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What's withyou and crash, stop the smearing, and the insults. Stop violating the rules. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say, when all you can do is insult me? Now once in this thread did I say that a woman can't get an abortion, so what's your problem?

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You have said that woman give up their right to body autonomy when they become pregnant. That they no longer control their uteruses at that point. Furthermore, you have said that although it's nice that we currently allow women the right to control their organs, it's just something nice that we allow them and not a constitutional right.That sounds an awful lot like you are advocating forced birth to me, or at least wanting to have a great deal of control over all women's uteruses.There is no insult, and I have not violated any rules.

There seems to be no admin in this thread. I am employing myself as a temporary agent of peace. What RiverRat "thinks" or more precisely, what you think he thinks, is not the topic. Also, he is within forum rules to keep talking about the topic. He should not have to bare clear agression/hostility.Perhaps you could take a breather Shraff? I know it's frustrating, and I see the signs that people are getting personal, and getting angry. You have to remember that nobody is obliged to see why your opinion is correct, over theirs, and vice versa.RR's ideologies aren't on trial.One of the forum rules states that it's best to remain calm and not get emotionally involved.

I imagine that contraceptive technologies will increase, so, no, I don't think there will be 40 million adoptions. Maybe they'll be orphans or something. Who knows? It's your hypothetical, what do you think will happen? And how is this on-topic again, exactly? I couldn't have described your views any better myself. There's no insult, just an accurate description of your position. With every post you prove me right.

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Nicely put, but it still doesn't explain why it is a right, other than just saying it is one, and thats that.

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Man has created legal rights (just, legal, or moral claim or power). Since an abortion is legal at this time, it is a legal right.Consenting to sex doesn't change that law. This is what our culture has become. We want to control our environment, and our reproduction. If we choose to have children, we have the ability to have them on our timetable. If we wait too long to have children, we have the ability to control that also (if one can afford it).Now is it a natural right (if that's even possible), no. I say that because without the manmade medical capabilities that we have, abortion would not be under our control.But today, in my state, I have the right to have consentual sex with the full knowledge that I don't want to get pregnant. I have the right to take precautions to prevent pregnancy and still have consentual sex. Should those precautions fail, I have the right to keep the baby, give the baby away, or terminate the pregnancy.Now some may consider it unconscionable for a person to consent to sex knowing that they would opt for abortion should a pregnancy occur or, in the case of a man, know they can't support or won't willingly support a child.So while people may not feel it is right, it is a right.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

*bangs head against wall*Where do I say, (andI explained at least more than once) than people cannot get medical treatment for anything?
How do you get that from what I said? In all those instances, you would have a hard time proving what did what. Plus not everyone who smoked knew that it was bad for them.Not only that, there is a difference between a healthy pregnancy, and an unhealthy desease. Just because a pregnancy is unwanted, doesn't make it bad for you. In fact breastfeeding can help reduce cancer:
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Um, yes it is exactly the same in some aspects.
And we are not talking about sex, we are talking about intercourse. Um, no. I have said the exact opoosite. You just choose to ignore it.You somehow think that if it isn't a right, that it wouldn't be allowed. That is illogical.Plus I stated in the OP that it is in fact a right, legally. But that is where it ends. It is not legal because it is a right. That's the difference. What's the difference?
Either way her rights were violated. In a sense, she violates herself when she commits to intercourse, if she doesn't intend on becoming pregnant.I have a right, to live a perfectly healthy life, so far as science, and my personal decisions about how I live my life will allow. This is a basic human right. If I decide to cliff dive, then I have given up that right, and purposely took a chance at getting harmed.You compare abortions to unhealthy things, so you must be talking about the right to be healthy, and live a normal life, without some alien thing sucking of your womb.You can't be talking about having control over your body, because once you take a risk, then your at the mercy of nature, and birth control. How did you make that leap, and describe what I think is just life, and turn it into some self-hatred, blame and punishment?I call it being a realist, I don't live in a fantasy land where people are not responsible for their own actions. At least I have some integrety and live up to my mistakes. I thought you felt the same way. Yes No. Thats the first time the word constition has entered this thread, do you have a specific reason for putting that word in my mouth?
That also seems to contradict the op directly. I guess thats all part of your debating tactics. It is a shame you need tactics to argue a topic, you and crash. Why can't you just stay on topic? Yes, calling me controlling is an insult, and incorrect. It's only your incorrect opinion, and it is directed towards me, not the topic, which is a direct violation of rule #10. Maybe you should apologize.

Yes, I stated that in the op. Someone here argued that a woman will still use a coat hanger.
But at least you agree with me, in respect to what I am saying. Yes. So then, let me ask you. Is it a right because it is legal, or is it legal because it is a right?

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Is it a right because it is legal, or is it legal because it is a right?

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IMO, today it is a right because it is legal.If we are to find out if it is a natural right, we need to look at what natural control we have over our bodies.I can't order my body to abort a pregnancy. The only control we have is to not have sex if we don't want to be pregnant.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Just so you know, mike, I was always perfectly calm.I was utterly calm when I wrote "...then why won't you shut the fuck up about abortion?" in my message to rat.I think it's clear when you read that bit in context with the rest of my messages in this thread that I used "shut the fuck up" simply as emphasis, and not as an attack.However, if you or rat took it as an attack, I apologize. I certainly see how, especially through this written internet form, how it could be construed as such.

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Where do I say, (andI explained at least more than once) than people cannot get medical treatment for anything?
How do you get that from what I said?

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I used your logic, rat, and simply substituted "AIDS" for "unwanted pregnancy" in the equation.Both are possible consequences of intercourse.People know that one of the consequences for choosing to have sex is the possibility that they might get an STD.Using your logic, if they do get an STD, such as AIDS, they have no right to medical treatment to ameliorate the negative consequences of their choice to consent to sex.

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In all those instances, you would have a hard time proving what did what.

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No, not really.The evidence is incredibly strong that smoking causes cancer and ephysema, and that obesity greatly contributes to diabetes, etc.Not everyone who smokes will get cancer, just like not every woman who has intercourse will get pregnant.However, if someone smokes and gets cancer, they have the right to get medical treatment to remove their cancer, even though they most likely knew that smoking greatly increased their chances of getting cancer. They also have the right to refuse treatment and simply receive the full force of the consequences of their actions.Likewise, if someone has sex and becomes pregnant, they have the right to medical treatment to terminate the pregnancy, even though they most likely knew that having sex greatly increases their chances of becoming pregnant. They also have the right to refuse treatment and simply receive the full force of the consequences of their actions.

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Plus not everyone who smoked knew that it was bad for them.

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Anybody who has started smoking in the last 30-40 years, at least, knows that it is very unhealthy.

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Not only that, there is a difference between a healthy pregnancy, and an unhealthy desease. Just because a pregnancy is unwanted, doesn't make it bad for you.

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All pregnancies risk the health of the girl or woman.All preganacies are more risky than an abortion.And this is irrelevant.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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He isn't forcing her to be pregnant. She is already pregnant hypothetically.

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He is forcing her to remain pregnant.

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Um, yes it is exactly the same in some aspects.

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No, it isn't.Is consenting to intercourse exactly the same as consenting to getting an STD?

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Um, no. I have said the exact opoosite. You just choose to ignore it.

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This is what you wrote in repones to my question in message #99 in this thread:(bold added by me)

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So, that means that you think that if a woman has sex and gets pregnant, she no longer has the right to control her own body?

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That is correct. She had the right to control her own body before commiting to intercourse. After she gets pregnant, she has the privilage of getting an abortion, not a "right."

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You somehow think that if it isn't a right, that it wouldn't be allowed. That is illogical.

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No, it's perfectly logical.Constitutional rights are the most difficult thing to change in our government for a reason, rat. That's why there have been so few amendments to it; only 27 in over 200 years, even though 10,000 have been introduced."Rights" are the closest thing we have to sacrosanct in our government, and a "privilage" is merely something nice we give to a group that can easily be taken away.

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Plus I stated in the OP that it is in fact a right, legally. But that is where it ends. It is not legal because it is a right. That's the difference.

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Jesus, rat, what the hell are you talking about?What on earth do you think Roe v. Wade was all about? It was the SCOTUS decision that made abortion legal on the basis that it was a woman's right to privacy and body autonomy.

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What's the difference?

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Er, she got to freely choose what to do with her body. That's the difference.

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Either way her rights were violated.

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So, every time a woman has consentual sex, her rights are being violated? WTF are you talking about? You are blathering now.

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In a sense, she violates herself when she commits to intercourse, if she doesn't intend on becoming pregnant.

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OK, now that's just bizzare.

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I have a right, to live a perfectly healthy life, so far as science, and my personal decisions about how I live my life will allow. This is a basic human right. If I decide to cliff dive, then I have given up that right, and purposely took a chance at getting harmed.

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No. You still have the right to medical treatment if you become injured through a risky behavior.That's what humane, non-judgemental medical practice is all about, rat.

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You compare abortions to unhealthy things, so you must be talking about the right to be healthy, and live a normal life, without some alien thing sucking of your womb.

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Well, no, not exactly. It's "normal" for a woman to be pregnant, just as it's "normal" for a woman to not be pregnant. It's not up to me to decide what "normal" is for anybody else's life.

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You can't be talking about having control over your body, because once you take a risk, then your at the mercy of nature, and birth control.

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We are always at the mercy of nature, every moment of every day. Every single thing we do is at the mercuy of nature. We will only cease being at nature's mercy when we are dead.Luckily, we have developed a vast knowledge of medical science that helps us ameliorate some of nature's consequences, including unwanted pregnancy, risky extreme sports like cliff diving, premature births, etc. Isn't it great that we get to choose to live our lives as we see fit, knowing that we can get medical care no matter how stupid and irresponsible we are?

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How did you make that leap, and describe what I think is just life, and turn it into some self-hatred, blame and punishment?

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You are saying that people who take risks are to be blamed and made to suffer the full consequences of those risky behaviors, even when medical science has developed methods to ameliorate those consequences if they come to pass.To me, that attitude speaks of wanting to punish people who take risks that you think they shouldn't.

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I call it being a realist, I don't live in a fantasy land where people are not responsible for their own actions.

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Smokers who get cancer? IV drug users who get AIDS? People who got a tatto and contracted Hepatitis? Riverrat says, "Fuck-em".

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At least I have some integrety and live up to my mistakes. I thought you felt the same way.

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Having an abortion is most certainly a responsible way to live up to one's mistake.

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Yes

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So, the zygote owns her uterus? Or the government?

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No. not a constitutional right.

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Women do not have a constitutional right to own their own organs, according to you?Really? You really think that there is ever a point in time when women don't own their uteruses?

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Thats the first time the word constition has entered this thread, do you have a specific reason for putting that word in my mouth?

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Er, maybe because it's the Constitution that gives women the right to body autonomy?

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Yes, calling me controlling is an insult, and incorrect.

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OK, would you like it better if I stated it this way, "Your argument seems to advocate the tight control of women's reproductive behavior."?So, rat, maybe you can clear something up for me.What is the difference between saying that a woman no longer has the right to control her uterus once she becomes pregnant, and advocating forced birth?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Not unless birth control becomes 100% fullproof, you cannot make that statement.

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Bullshit.Someone can have choose to have intercourse and feverently and fully NOT wish to become pregnant.Like me, for instance.

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I am not implying anything.

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You most certainly are. You are implying that women do not have a constitutional right to control their own organs. You are implying that it is a "privilage", a "nice thing we allow women to have", but it is not a right.

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Abortion does not hinge of whether it is a right or not.

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While I agree that women have sought abortions for millenia, long before such things were ever made a thing of law, it is completely ridiculous to refer to modern abortion rights as having nothing to do with rights.Who owns the uterus, rat?Sometimes you say the woman owns her uterus, and sometimes you say that she doesn't.Which is it?

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1. If you consent to intercourse, you take the chance of getting pregnant.
2. If you have intercourse with the desire to become pregnant, you take the chance of becoming pregnant.

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Not quite right, rat. You left something out of the first one:

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1. If you consent to intercourse and do not want to become pregnant, you take the chance of getting pregnant.
2. If you have intercourse with the desire to become pregnant, you take the chance of becoming pregnant.

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So you see, the person's desire to have intercourse and desire to become pregnant are two different things.Similarly, having very athletic sex may lead to strained and sore muscles, and even injury. According to your logic, someone who consents to sex actually is desireous of sore muscles, or maybe throwing their back out.

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What's the difference really? One's desires?

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Yes. That's the difference.

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Can ones desires override what actually is?

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Well, with the help of medical science, yes. We can override the undesired consequences of a whole spectrum of behaviors.

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I desire the sun to be purple, will it ever be purple, because I have a right to it being purple.

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Who says that you have the right to the sun being purple? You are blathering again.Try using an analogy that involves control over what one does with one's own body.An analogy regarding turning the sun purple is, frankly, stupid.We don't control the sun, nor do we have a constitutional right to control the sun.

Neither. It's a legal right because people want it to be a legal right. We live in a democracy, and if enough people want something, they can get it. They wanted the right to an abortion, so they got it.If, however, you're looking for what makes abortion a moral right, it's a little tougher.If you adhere to absolute morals which dictate abortion is wrong, then it is wrong, and nothing anyone says can change that.If you adhere to absolute morals which dictate that abortion is okay, then it is okay, and nothing anyone says can change that.If you adhere to relative morality, it all depends on the time and place in which you are living. In the here and now (US in early 21st century) abortion is legal. It is a legal right, and the people who made it so believed it was a moral right also (indeed, made it so because it is a moral right). So, relative morality tells us that abortion can be a moral right, and is a moral right (in the here and now).I guess it all comes down to who or what dictates your morals as to whether or not it is a moral right.

I agree, that is a realistic view on it.