Summations Only

They have it right. A clock at the Earth's surface is in a lower gravitational potential because it has a shorter distance between it and the Earth's center of gravity (or more appropriately, the barycenter). The shorter distance means it can produce less work, hence less potential.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

LOLThe moderators will act as soon as I post on topic.
They apparently don't mind you fellows off topic, but they do act against a serious religious comment that supports Genesis.I am a non-creationist who reads comprehensively enough to recognize that the Big Bang was an "In the beginning," which was followed by a Histroy of the Earth marked by catastrophic events recorded in the six geologicl Eras of the Rocks.There even was a Cosmic Dark Age before light appeared throughout the Universe, as Gen 1:3-5 says:Gen. 1:3 And God, (next, after the creation of the Heavens), said, Let there be light: and there was light, (which had been delayed by 400 million years after the Big Bang by a Cosmic Dark Age throughout all the universe). Gen. 1:4 And (Father Nature, the Force behind the ever unfolding Reality), God, saw the light, that it was good: and (Father Nature, the Force behind the ever unfolding Reality), God, divided the light from the darkness (as the stars formed).Gen. 1:5 And (Father Nature, the Force behind the ever unfolding Reality), God, called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

Hi iCant

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While the fountain produces proper time within its laboratory, all clocks are subject to frequency shifts due to both velocity and the local gravitational potential.

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This statement is completely consistent with time dilation. The frequency shift described above is exactly what General Relativity predicts would be observed by an observer on the ground comparing the frequencies of the two clocks. What you need in order to refute GR is some statement that indicates that an observer on the satellite would observe the same frequency shift.And additionally you have repeated the mistake the you made previously. Note that the quoted material attributes the frequency shift to "both velocity and the local gravitational potential" Not gravitational potential alone.So when you are wrong again when you make the following statement Nope. According to your sources the 38,700 ns/day results from both velocity and clock height in the gravitational field. About 45,900 ns/day is generated due to gravitational effects.

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Gravitational frequency shift. A clock at rest in a lower gravitational potential runs slower relative to coordinate time than if it were at rest in a higher potential.

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The above statement is entirely consistent with General Relativity. It may well be that Ashby denies time dilation, but the statement you cite does nothing of the sort. Show me a statement indicating that the frequency as observed on the satellite is shifted.

Your comment seems to be on topic here.

Hi No No, I have dentures so I don't make dental appointments.I do make doctor appointments and in fact I have one Monday at 11:45 AM. The appointment was made November 19th at 3:15 in the afternoon.Duration between events can be measured by time which is based upon mankinds concept of time using seconds, minutes, hours, days and weeks, etc.I could not go to the doctor for my appointment of Dec. 3 rd when it was made.I had to wait the duration in existence from Nov. 19th until Dec. 3rd before keeping that appointment.God Bless,

No No?? A statement which pretty much mirrors what I said. Did you intend it instead to be a rebuttal?As I said, an appointment, like other time coordinates, can be an end point of a duration and but is not itself a duration. An appointment for Dec. 3 when made at any time prior sets a due date at Dec 3. You no longer have two wait two weeks to keep that appointment, and yet it is still on Dec 3. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Those are just the units that humans use to describe the very real passage of time. This is actually a good example of why time is the 4th coordinate. For the appointment, it is important to know where you should be within the 3 spatial dimensions and when you will be there in the 4th time dimension. You need all 4 in order to describe the appointment.

I doubt it too, they are professionals who work with atomic clocks as you said.So good thing they all mention the curvature of spacetime as the explanation for the GPS time measurments. In fact Neil Ashby wrote an article in Physics Today explicitly explaining this, see here:
http://www.ipgp.fr/...onal/GPS/Neil_Ashby_Relativity_GPS.pdfEdited by Son Goku, : ICANT said the quote, not me.

I hope so.
The moderators complain that my posts are off topic then get mad and suspend me but i am not clear on what their complaint is.Is there a section here where religious insights are not welcome and only the science people are allowed to bash the Bible without defense???In regard to this discussion about time: Kant recognized that the concept of time was apriori.
He said it was an integral part of our sensory system.This seems true, based upon the circadian rhythms all life forms recognize and use to regulate their metabolism.

It is a fundamental aspect of the universe due to entropy. Entropy increases over time. That is how the universe works. Nothing in the universe would work as it does if this was not true.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Hi Son, I read his article an there is little difference in that paper and the last one he wrote on the subject.Let me see if I can put my finger on our differences about the clock.The 7,200 ocsillations that do not take place in the atomic clock on the satellite is caused by time shrinking instead of the ocsillations not taking place due to the velocity of movement of the satellite relative to the clock on Earth.The 45,900 ocsillations that do take place in the atomic clock on the satellite is caused by time streaching instead of the ocsillations taking place due to the height of the satellite from the surface of the Earth.Is this what you are saying?The following says the clocks oscillations are effected by position in the gravatational field. The lower in the gravatational field the slower the oscillations will be.It also says the clock's oscillations will be slower due to velocity the clock is moving at.

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General Relativity (GR) predicts that clocks in a stronger gravitational field will tick at a slower rate. Special Relativity (SR) predicts that moving clocks will appear to tick slower than non-moving ones.

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SourceNeither of the above has time streaching or shrinking.The do have the oscillations of the clocks speeding or slowing due to the height above the Earth's surface and the velocity the clock is traveling relative to the earthbound clock.What time is, is very important.There is existence, that is a fact. We exist proving that existence is.Events in existence is a fact. We prove that as we are doing different things in a continual procession.We can measure the duration between events in existence, that is a fact. We have devised seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years etc. and use those to represent the duration between events in existence.OK we have existence. I think all can agree we exist in some form. (Even if it is as a brain in a jar being an experiment of some life form.Can we agree that the opposite of existence is non-existence?Please pay attention to the exact statements below.The universe has existed for infinite eternity in some form, be it only as matter and energy.ORThe universe began to exist.Since non-existence is the opposite of existence for the universe to have a beginning to exist it would have to come from non-existence and exist in non-existence.To rule out some objection to my statements like:Some god could have created it. There would be no god in non-existence.Any other method you might come up with would not exist in non-existence.Now anyone who believes that the universe had a beginning to exist is a creationist.Anyone who believes the universe has existed for infinite eternity without beginning or end is not a creationist.I am a non creationist as the Bible says "In the beginning created, God the Heavens and the Earth".There is no person that can give me the date God is referring to in Genesis 1:1.Please observe that God did not give a description of what He called the Heavens and the Earth, in Genesis 1:1.God Bless

An observer on the Earth would observe more ticks per second in satellite's clock as compared to a comparable clock on Earth. The oscillations are ticking away at a faster rate on the satellite as compared to the surface of the Earth.If that observer took that Earth clock up to the satellite and compared them side by side he would observe that they tick at the same rate. This is because time ticks at different rates in different positions within a gravitational field. Those are one in the same. The clocks merely measure time. It is time itself that is changing.

Hi Taq, This contradicts the following. So which is it?Does the clock on the satellite tick faster than the clock on Earth due to the fact it is higher in the gravatational field?God Bless,

Wrong ICANT.There is no confict between the two. Time passes at different rates for the two diffeerent observers. If you don't understand what that, you are not going to understand the predictions of General Relativity.I would suggest re-reading that Ashby reference you cited. The reference explains the situation quite well. Perhaps the following will help if you make the attempt.Ashby acknowledges that the effect of gravity on clocks is through time dilation produced by the curvature of space. Son pointed to the relevant paragraphs. But just because Ashby does not repeat that statement every single time he talks about clock frequency is no reason to believe that he has changed his mind halfway through the reference about the cause.So cherry picking some sentence where time dilation is not mentioned, as you did, is a meaningless exercise. Perhaps if you go back to quoting Flanders, you can find something that would be helpful. Time runs faster in the satellite due to the decreased gravitational potential, which is due to the height of the satellite in the earth's gravitational field. The satellite clock remains synched up with the passage of time in the satellite, and accordingly runs faster as well. These answers are from the perspective of a person on the ground to whom information related to the satellite clock has been transmitted.On the other hand, if there were an astronaut observer in the satellite, he would observe the clock to be running at normal speed. Using any instruments on the satellite, the astronaut would measure the clock rate to be exactly the same as the ground observer determines for the ground clock.I'd appreciate hearing from anyone other than ICANT that still has a problem understanding this. I'd particular appreciate hearing from someone who like ICANT, does not accept time dilation.

Hi No,1. Is the second defined as 9,192,631,770 oscillations of the caesium-133 atom?2. Is the atomic clock at Bolder Colorado set to operate at 9,192,631,770 oscillations per second?3. Does the atomic clock in a GPS satellite have 9,192,631,770 oscillations per second in the same amount of duration that the clock in Bolder Colorado does?4. If not what has to be done to insure that the duration experienced by the earthbound clock is represented by the clock in the satellite?A yes or no answer to the first 3 of the above question would be sufficient.God Bless,