Summations Only

It's too easy Faith ... But you said the strata were laid down by the flood.Enjoy.

AND we know that at 4,350 years ago there was no world wide flood, because there are currently 3 if not more Bristlecone pines alive today (or alive in 1965 when cut down to count rings) that are older than that.One is over 5,063 years old and possibly quite a bit older due to erosion of the windward side of the tree.Enjoy

and the need to cram extra rings into dendrochronologies and extra varves into lake sediments.I'd love to see how mindspawn explains Cariaco basin with spring tides ... and then there are the ice cores ... so much fun so much time ...Enjoy.

While ignoring the evidence of old age in the wind erosion of the rocks that leaves a patina over time, in the speleothems at different heights in the sides of the canyon that formed when the river level was at their height in the canyon and the caves they formed in were eroded out.Grand Canyon - Wikipedia

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A recent study places the origins of the canyon beginning about 17M years ago. Previous estimates had placed the age of the canyon at 5—6 million years.[12] The study, which was published in the journal Science in 2008, used uranium-lead dating to analyze calcite deposits found on the walls of nine caves throughout the canyon.[13]

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That study found different age speleothems in different height caves in the walls of the canyon. The ages correlate with height in the canyon wall with higher cave speleothems being older than lower cave speleothems.Rapid erosion does not form caves. Thus you should agree that these caves formed after the canyon was cut.Slow erosion forms caves, especially where they are in limestone and dissolve in water or water with weak carbolic acid.Speleothems only form after the caves have been made and it takes time to deposit the layers of calcite (from Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems another thread Faith ran away from):How to Date the Grand Canyon: Go With the Flow | WIRED

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It turns out that the time stamps were there all along. They were just hidden away inside the hundreds of caves inside the Grand Canyon's walls. Strange formations known as mammilary coatings -- named for their vague resemblance to breasts -- line some of the cave walls. Mammilary coatings form on the walls of caves that are submerged just below the water table. As the Colorado River sliced deeper down into the Colorado Plateau, the water table gradually dropped. Mammilary coatings marked the river's fall. And as mammilary coatings form, they also happen to trap a lot of uranium. By measuring their age, scientists can measure how long ago they were near the water table.

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Three geologists from the University of New Mexico have explored caves along the Grand Canyon, ranging from the very bottom to the rim. In this week's issue of Science, they report that the highest caves have mammilary coatings dating back about 17 million years, and the lowest ones date to about 800,000 years. And all the caves between the top and bottom have the intermediate ages you’d expect. By measuring the distance from the rim to the caves, the geologists were then able to estimate how fast the Colorado River carved the canyon. The downstream end of the canyon formed first, and only later did the upstream end catch up. These new measurements show that even as the river sank down into the earth, the earth itself rose, lifted by hot rock welling up through the crust ...

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The speleothems can be dated because uranium is soluble in water but thorium and lead are notThus one speleothem categorically disproves a young earth explanation for the canyon as a whole.The staggering of these up the canyon wall with different ages at different heights all show long term erosion of the canyon -- the time it took to cut from one level down to the next level down to the next, etcThe canyon is old, very old, it formed by slow erosion. Get used to it.Enjoy.

There are over 900 caves in the canyon walls Faith -- observed, documented demonstrated "disturbing" of the canyon by slow erosion ...ANDThe speleothems are observed, documented formations that take looooong time to formThey are at different levels of the canyon wall and are different ages and the age and height correlate -- that isn't interpretation Faith that is observation of the evidence.You can't explain them with a young earth formation after a young earth creation of the canyon.Enjoy.

No Faith -- you have the problemIt's already figured out in my worldview system, because I have no problem with the world being old. The speleothems are information that the canyon was still being formed when they were laid down.These type of speleothems form underwater, the cave erode from the sides of the canyon after it was cut to that level,So the level of the river was near the elevation of these formations when the caves formed and flooded the cavesThen the speleothems formedThen the river cut deeper and the cave dried out, the speleothems dried out nd layer deposits stoppedLower down another cave formed and filled with water and another speleothem was formedand the river cut deeper and the cave dried out, the second speleothem dried out and layer deposits stoppedLower down another cave forms and the sequence is repeated againand down againand these caves do not form by rapid erosion -- rapid erosion leaves scoured sides -- carries large boulders that are massive grinders of walls and bottoms chewing out a wide flat channel (see scablands again)these cave branch away from the river into the sides of the canyon likely caused by water flowing through the rock eroding it awaypools of water form in the cave and the speleothems form in the pools - underwateras the river cuts deeper into the ground the water table drops, the pools dry up and the speleothems stop growing.The age of each speleothem is greater than a young earth fantasyThe ages between speleothems is greater than a young earth fantasyThey form a consistent pattern of age and depth in the canyon walls consistent with long erosion of the canyon by the river we see today, still cutting, still eroding into the earth.The canyon formed over millions of years as an observable fact.Why do the speleothems have different ages that correlate so well with the long formation of the canyon Faith?Uranium is carried in water and so particles are in the water when the speleothems form, It gets incorporated with other minerals in the calcite formations, part of what gives them colors, and the uranium decays into thorium and lead, elements that are not soluble in water, so their presence inside the speleothems is due to uranium decay after the uranium was deposited. This observation of thorium and lead tells us how old the speleothems are.This decay occurred after your flood fantasy ended -- after the cave formed -- after the canyon was cut to that depth.Why are they so old, why is there so much age difference between them?Enjoy.Enjoy.

There were many volcanoes near the western end of the canyon, and the evidence of their existence is observableGeologic Activity - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

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In the recent geologic past, volcanic activity dramatically impacted the Grand Canyon. In the western Grand Canyon hundreds of volcanic eruptions occurred over the past two million years. At least a dozen times, lava cascaded down the walls of the Inner Gorge, forming massive lava dams that blocked the flow of the Colorado River. Three of these lava dams were over 1,000 feet high, forming lakes similar to reservoirs such as Lake Powell or Lake Mead. Some of the lakes were over 100 miles long and filled the lower portion of the Grand Canyon for many years before finally over-topping the dam and eroding much of it away. Cinder cones and the remnants of lava flows and dams are visible in the Toroweap area and from the river near Lava Falls.

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Just southeast of Grand Canyon, near Flagstaff, is Sunset Crater Volcano National Monument, where in A.D. 1064 a series of eruptions built the park’s namesake cinder cone. About 45 earthquakes occurred in or near the Grand Canyon during the 1900’s. Of these, five registered between 5.0 and 6.0 on the Richter Scale. Dozens of faults cross the canyon, with at least several active in the last 100 years.

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These are visible disturbances that have occurred in the area.How long does it take lava rock to erode away Faith?How long does it take to erode away 3 different lava dams that were over 1,000 feet high when the lava stopped flowing?http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2008/02/080205100014.htm

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John Wesley Powell wrote in 1895: ...what a conflict of water and fire there must have been [in western Grand Canyon]! Just imagine a river of molten rock running down over a river of melted snow.
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Over 110 years later, a synthesis of new and existing dates on these lava flows shows that many are significantly younger than initially thought and all are less than 725 thousand years old. The geochronology data indicates four major episodes when lava flows either erupted into the canyon or flowed over the rim into it: 725-475 thousand years ago (ka), 400-275 ka, 225-150 ka, and 150-75 ka.

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These flows formed lava dams in western Grand Canyon that had dramatic impact on the Colorado River.

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What water eroded through these lava dams, when you have the flood out-rush already used to carve the canyon is one massive fantasy flow cutting event -- you are now out of water to erode through one dam, to say nothing of 3 such major dams and several smaller ones. How do these erode except by slow geological erosion processes we see ongoing today?Not only have they been eroded away Faith, but the river has continued to cut into the bottom rock and the canyon now extends below the levels of these lava dams -- a bottom depth deeper than what was there when the dams formed.'splain it to me.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : d

Another thing to add to the Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes thread ... Why do Creationists lie Faith?Enjoy.

There are two basic things that can interfere with clear understanding of a problem, one is a working knowledge of the field of science involved, including knowledge, use and understanding of the proper terminology. This can be achieved via education.The second is cognitive dissonance -- if a problem creates severe dissonance for a person it becomes difficult to wade through any description of the problem because your mind keeps rejecting things as 'just not possible' -- and frankly I don't know how to overcome this difficulty ... so condolences for anyone suffering this aspect, and I hope you find some reasonable resolution that allows for new information rather than blanket rejection.Enjoy

Thanks Faith, I understand your reluctance. This is a false statement -- in science things are interpreted according to what the evidence says. When you don't restrain your conclusions to predetermined results, when you follow where the evidence leads, then you come to conclusions based on an approximation of reality.You can see this process in the history of science understanding of such things as gravity, where Aristotle argued that things fell at different speeds according to their weight. Galileo at the tower of Pisa (supposedly) proved this to be wrong.Galileo's Leaning Tower of Pisa experiment - WikipediaNewton formalized his law of gravity as the force between two objects being positively related to the mass of each and inversely related to the distance between them: And we now know that this is not completely correct, for instance it doesn't explain the orbit of Mercury properly.So we now have General Relativity ... and I won't bother you with the equations ... which takes care of Mercury but seems to have some other anomalies ... but we are getting closer.The age of the earth has a similar history. NOBODY started from a position that the earth must be old.One thing to consider: you can't have evidence that shows great age in a young earth unless the evidence is illusory, lying -- evidence that is part of creation. You can have evidence of young parts of the earth in an old universe\earth ... volcanic lava flows, tephra, etc will date to the time of eruption.EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : ..

yes, and

• the uplift is still occurring
• the erosion of the canyon is still occurring
• THREE magma dikes occurred AND were eroded away
• formations all over the southwest are sculpted predominantly by wind and by freeze-thaw cycles ... such as the hoodoos ...
• speleothems formed underwater in caves well up the sides of the canyon, caves that developed after the canyon was cut ...

False. They are all disturbed in different ways. They don't need to be "catastrophically disturbed" just to suit you. Just because you claim crows should be green and that any crows that aren't green would prove evolution erroneous doesn't mean that black crows prove anything other than that your belief of what should have happened is false.All you prove is that you don't understand geology, know squat about it, and are unwilling to learn. False. The "knife edge" surfaces you are so fond of all show evidence of being a surface, either underwater or in air. Many have evidence of life on those surfaces, and that is enough to prove that they were a surface. Double False. Even IF your clouded rose glass observations were true it would not mean that rapid deposition and a young earth would explain them. The fact remains that no such formations have been observed happening TODAY from rapid deposition. NOT ONE.Uranium halos can't form in a few years, but it takes thousands of years for the decay of alpha particles to form the halos ... such halos exist and because of this they are de facto evidence of having taken a long time to be there. This is not interpretation, it is fact.There is a tree in the Sierra Nevadas that is over 5,063 years old. The evidence is annual growth rings, and all you have to do is count them: no interpretation needed.Enjoy.

Tectonic uplift - Wikipedia

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Orogenic uplift

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Orogenic uplift is the result of tectonic-plate collisions and results in mountain ranges or a more modest uplift over a large region. Perhaps the most extreme form of orogenic uplift is a continental-continental crustal collision. In this process, two continents are sutured together and large mountain ranges are produced. The collision of the Indian and Eurasian plates is a good example of the extent to which orogenic uplift can reach. Heavy thrust faulting (of the Indian plate beneath the Eurasian plate) and folding are responsible for the suturing together of the two plates.[1] The collision of the Indian and Eurasian plates not only produced the Himalaya, but is also responsible for crustal thickening up into Siberia.[2] The Pamir Mountains, Tian Shan, Altai, Hindu Kush, and other mountain belts are all examples of mountain ranges formed in response to the collision of the Indian with the Eurasian plate. . Deformation of continental lithosphere can take place in several possible modes, and there are quite a few theories around.

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The Ozark Plateau is a broad uplifted area which resulted from the Permian Ouachita Orogeny to the south in the states of Arkansas, Oklahoma and Texas. Another related uplift is the Llano Uplift in Texas, a geographical location named after its uplift features.

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The Colorado Plateau which includes the Grand Canyon is also the result of broad tectonic uplift followed by river erosion.

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For starters Grand Canyon Supergroup - Wikipedia

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The Grand Canyon Supergroup is a Mesoproterozoic to Neoproterozoic sequence of sedimentary strata, mostly exposed in the eastern Grand Canyon of Arizona. This group is composed of the Unkar Group, Nankoweap Formation, Chuar Group and the Sixtymile Formation, which overlie Vishnu Basement Rocks. Several notable landmarks of the Grand Canyon, such as the "Isis Temple and Cheops Pyramid" and the "Apollo Temple," are surface manifestations of the Grand Canyon Supergroup.

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The Grand Canyon Supergroup uncomfortably overlie the Vishnu Basement Rocks, but were never subjected to metamorphism. The units of the Supergroup were faulted and then tilted from 10 to 15 degrees.[3]

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and then they were eroded down to the level covered by the next round of sedimentation.Enjoy.

Earthquakes. Shinumo Quartzite - Wikipedia

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The Shinumo Quartzite also known as the Shinumo Sandstone, is a Mesoproterozoic rock formation, which outcrops in the eastern Grand Canyon, Coconino County, Arizona. The Shinumo Quartzite consists of a series of massive, cliff-forming sandstones and sedimentary quartzites. ...

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The Shinumo Quartzite is a middle member of the Unkar Group. The Unkar Group is about 1,600 to 2,200 m (5,200 ft to 7,200 ft) thick and composed of, in ascending order, the Bass Formation, Hakatai Shale, Shinumo Quartzite, Dox Formation, and Cardenas Basalt. The Unkar Group consists of a sequence of sedimentary rocks that accumulated in a variety of environments ranging from fluvial to shallow-marine. Overall, the strata within it are conformable with the exception of a significant disconformity between the Hatakai Shale and Shinumo Quartzite. ...

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The Shinumo Quartzite exhibits a variety of sedimentary structures. The sandstones of the lower and lower middle members exhibit centimeter- to meter-scale planar tabular cross-stratification and trough cross-beds. These cross beds record north-directed paleocurrents along with subordinate bidirectional paleocurrents. The upper middle member exhibits abundant cross beds, clay galls, and mudcracks. The sandstones of the upper member exhibit trough cross-beds, suggesting a more northerly transport direction. The sandstone and quartzite beds of the upper member exhibit an abundance of complexly contorted, gnarly bedded, fluid expulsion structures and dramatic convolute bedding. The beds that exhibit these soft-sediment deformation structures are meters- to tens-of-meters thick. They are cited as evidence for frequent earthquake activity and fluid migration during the deposition of the Shinumo Quartzite. These deformed beds can be seen at river level in the vicinity of Nevilles Rapid, (List of Colorado River rapids), at river mile 75.[2][5][6]

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Between the three-member Tonto Group (above) and the Shinumo Quartzite, and the rest of the folded and faulted Unkar Group, is a prominent angular unconformity, which is part of the Great Unconformity. Though this surface is typically a plane, differential erosion of the tilted strata of the Unkar Group left resistant beds of the Cardenas Basalt and Shinumo Quartzite as ancient hills, called monadnocks, that are up to 240 m (800 ft) high. Thin drapes of Tapeats Sandstone of the Tonto Group now cover most of these ancient monadnocks. However, a few of these monadnocks protrude up into the Bright Angel Shale (Isis Temple example). These monadnocks served locally as sources of coarse-grained sediments that accumulated during the marine transgression to form the Tonto Group.[2][9]

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Enjoy

They occurred before the tops of the supergroup were eroded and before the next layer of sediment was laid over them.How can you tell? they were roughly sheared off by erosion in a generally horizontal line to form the base for the next layerEnjoy.

ah the fault is all mine I was just being simplistic ...Enjoy