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Author Topic:   Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 76 of 127 (773024)
11-23-2015 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Bliyaal
11-23-2015 9:40 AM


Bliyaal writes:

GIA writes:

Bliyaal

If they can get into the country then they will fall under the laws that they want to tear down.

Like I said, your morals stop at the borders and that's scary.

Not to quibble but as GIA says, it's the law that would stop violations of human rights within your borders, not any moral concern on GIA's part.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Bliyaal, posted 11-23-2015 9:40 AM Bliyaal has replied

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Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 1603 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 77 of 127 (773026)
11-23-2015 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Omnivorous
11-23-2015 12:36 PM


True... That's even scarier

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 127 (773046)
11-23-2015 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Modulous
11-20-2015 4:02 PM


The refugees dying in their thousands is more carnage than terrorists have managed to inflict on us in decades of earnest attempts.

Indeed.

Folks dismissive of Islam's intolerance regularly fail to see that those most affected by it are Muslims.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 4:02 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Modulous, posted 11-24-2015 8:04 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 127 (773048)
11-23-2015 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
11-22-2015 1:07 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
It was shown that your argument makes no sense. It only works if we consider immigrant Muslims as analogous to incoming Europeans—i.e., as invaders. And if we view Muslim immigrants this way, our reasons for refusing them entry are even greater.

Meanwhile, I stand by my statement: the immigrants who should have been kept out were us.

Obviously anyone who goes on the Internet and argues that events responsible for their existence should never have taken place is only passing time between bowel movements.

Why should anyone take your nonsense seriously?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-22-2015 1:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 1339 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 80 of 127 (773060)
11-24-2015 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
11-23-2015 9:38 PM


Folks dismissive of Islam's intolerance regularly fail to see that those most affected by it are Muslims.

Folks dismissive of Islam's intolerance regularly fail to see that those most affected by it are Muslims.

Which is why it is so surprising that folks are so concerned about themselves they will happily let children and elderly freeze and drown rather than trying to help the real victims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 11-23-2015 9:38 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Jon, posted 11-24-2015 9:13 AM Modulous has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 127 (773064)
11-24-2015 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Modulous
11-24-2015 8:04 AM


Why is that surprising?

Certainly you don't think it is the West's job to save all these folks from their own ideological nightmare?

At some point you're no longer helping but merely enabling.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Modulous, posted 11-24-2015 8:04 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19521
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 82 of 127 (773071)
11-24-2015 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Jon
11-23-2015 10:06 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Jon writes:

It only works if we consider immigrant Muslims as analogous to incoming Europeans—i.e., as invaders.


The Europeans were not considered as invaders by the indigenous people. They were welcomed. Ever hear of Thanksgiving?

It was only their behaviour after they arrived that made their hosts want to deport them. By analogy, if the refugees misbehave when they are here, we would deport them. That's pretty much the plan.

Jon writes:

Why should anyone take your nonsense seriously?


Maybe you should try some introspection.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 83 by Percy, posted 11-24-2015 11:00 AM ringo has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20754
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 83 of 127 (773073)
11-24-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
11-24-2015 10:41 AM


Re: Benefits of Islam
ringo writes:

The Europeans were not considered as invaders by the indigenous people. They were welcomed.

The initial response of indigenous American tribes to the arrival of Europeans varied and included hostility.

The analogy of the arrival of Europeans in the Americas to immigration into a modern state doesn't seem very strong.

--Percy


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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 84 of 127 (773074)
11-24-2015 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jon
11-21-2015 1:39 PM


Jon writes:

That, of course, is just an anecdote. If we look at actual evidence (surveys of what people believe) we find things like this bit that Mod kindly pointed out long ago but has been doing a good job of forgetting:

quote:
Modulous in Message 131 in Evil Muslim conspiracy...:

quote:
About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.

When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.


The bottom line is: if religiously sanctioned death and mutilation is an extremist position - its a very common one.


Middle-Eastern Muslims are by and large fundamentalists of a nature that makes our own Christian fundamentalists look like kittens.

It's not unreasonable to want to keep their crap out of the West.

So, they agree with the death penalty just like many of their counterparts in the west do. As John Oliver said (paraphrased), "whether you are stoning people to death, boiling them alive, or having them put to sleep by a cute puppy dressed as Winnie the Pooh, you are still getting the same result." I'm anti-death penalty, yet I can understand those people who advocate for this to remain as a penalty. I do not agree with them, but I understand where they are coming from.

As for this:

Jon writes:

What I have said is we have no obligation to receive such folks and should, given what we know of Muslims in the region be very cautious about importing extreme radicalism of the kind the West has already fought enough wars to get rid of in its own borders.

How much radicalism have we "imported" into our country through accepting refugees...I wonder if someone happened to run the actual numbers. Oh wait, they have:
Syrian Refugees don't pose a serious security threat

From this link:

CATO Institute writes:

Of the 859,629 refugees admitted from 2001 onwards, only three have been convicted of planning terrorist attacks on targets outside of the United States, and none was successfully carried out. That is one terrorism-planning conviction for every 286,543 refugees that have been admitted. To put that in perspective, about 1 in every 22,541 Americans committed murder in 2014. The terrorist threat from Syrian refugees in the United States is hyperbolically over-exaggerated and we have very little to fear from them because the refugee vetting system is so thorough.

If you think that radicalized individuals are going to wait the, on average, three years to arrive in this country with refugee status when other options (student visa, tourist visas, or asylum) are available that have a small amount of vetting compared to attempting for refugee status, then I think you have swallowed the fear politicians are selling far too readily.

The CATO Institute continues:

CATO Institute writes:

The UNHCR annually refers less than one percent of all refugees for resettlement. In 2014, they referred a mere 103,890 to all resettlement nations. That year, the United States accepted 69,933 refugees, or about 0.5 percent of the total number of all refugees in the world, but over 67 percent of all those referred by UNHCR.

In 2015, the United States has accepted only 1,682 Syrian refugees, or 0.042 percent of the 4,045,650 registered Syrian refugees. Only one out of every 2,405 Syrian refugees in a camp was resettled in the United States in 2015.

So, these are the numbers. You are far more likely to get shot by your neighbor in the United States than you are to be threatened by a Syrian refugee, regardless of their religion.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 1:39 PM Jon has replied

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19521
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 85 of 127 (773076)
11-24-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Percy
11-24-2015 11:00 AM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Percy writes:

The initial response of indigenous American tribes to the arrival of Europeans varied and included hostility.


And the response today toward Muslim immigrants varies and includes hostility. The analogy works even if it isn't a Great Wall.

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Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4065
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 86 of 127 (773080)
11-24-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Jon
11-24-2015 9:13 AM


Us vs. Them
Jon writes:

Certainly you don't think it is the West's job to save all these folks from their own ideological nightmare?

East, West, North, South.
We are all people.

Of course it's our job. Because we're people.
Your division is arbitrary and useless and entirely part of the problem.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 127 (773081)
11-24-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
11-24-2015 11:05 AM


Re: Benefits of Islam
The natives didn't have a country for the europeans to immigrate into, nor did they have a say in whether or not they would "let" them in.

That's not analogous to citizens asking another country to allow them to seek refuge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 11-24-2015 11:05 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 11-24-2015 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 91 by Omnivorous, posted 11-24-2015 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19521
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 88 of 127 (773082)
11-24-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by New Cat's Eye
11-24-2015 11:34 AM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Cat Sci writes:

The natives didn't have a country for the europeans to immigrate into...


Sure they did. They had their territories with disputed boundaries, just like white folks have.

Cat Sci writes:

... nor did they have a say in whether or not they would "let" them in.


They had a say. They said, "Yes." Later on, when they changed their minds and said, "No," their lack of might failed to make them right.

Cat Sci writes:

That's not analogous to citizens asking another country to allow them to seek refuge.


The Mayflower pilgrims, for one example, were seeking refuge, and it was granted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-24-2015 11:34 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 127 (773083)
11-24-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
11-24-2015 11:42 AM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Sure they did. They had their territories with disputed boundaries, just like white folks have.

It was not just like white folks had. They didn't even have property rights, and had nothing in the way of an immigration policy.

They had a say.

No, they didn't have a say in whether or not they would allow us on to the continent.

All they could do was fight us if they didn't like it.

That's not analogous to a country making decisions on their immigration policy.

It's not 'welcome or fight'; the country has the option of legally disallowing it. The natives did not have this option.

They said, "Yes." Later on, when they changed their minds and said, "No,"

They were not a cohesive enough group to qualify their response to the european invasion with a "yes or no".

their lack of might failed to make them right.

That is, they did not have a say.

The Mayflower pilgrims, for one example, were seeking refuge, and it was granted.

Not "granted", just not fought.

That's different from the question of whether or not a country's immigration policy should grant refugee status to certain immigrants.

It's just a completely different question. Analogizing it with the response of native americans to european invation doesn't even begin to cover it.


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 Message 88 by ringo, posted 11-24-2015 11:42 AM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19521
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 90 of 127 (773084)
11-24-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by New Cat's Eye
11-24-2015 12:04 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Cat Sci writes:

It's not 'welcome or fight'; the country has the option of legally disallowing it. The natives did not have this option.


You're working too hard at misunderstanding. The point of an analogy is to recognize the similarities, not grasp at every straw to ignore the similarities.

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