Christianity and the End Times

I’m still waiting for you to provide real evidence of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Matthew 24 didn’t mention it at all - as anyone who manages to read it can see.And now you are denying your own (admittedly worthless) argument that the manchild represented the dead overcomers of Revelation 12:11 by claiming that those people are alive and being persecuted in verse 17.

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I don't think you yourself understand what you are writing.

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Oh, I do.

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A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.

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So first you claim that the overcomers in verse 10-11 were Raptured. Then you claimed that they were left on Earth. Now you claim that some of them were and some weren’t.And you say that I don’t understand what I am saying ?

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The evidence that the Manchild is a corporate person was given that what the Manchild is promised to do is what OVERCOMERS are promised

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However that also appears in Revelation 19 applied to a figure which you take - and I agree - to be Jesus alone.And since that is the limit of your case - it really isn’t that great.

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Plenty of sensible reason has been given.

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Please tell me the sensible reason for sabotaging your own argument by assuming that verses which seem to be about different people are about the same people.

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I didn't write anything of that kind.

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But you did. In Message 946 you tried to argue that verse 17 referred to them and that

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Oh, you made no claim and took no position on that.
No position is usually the easier position to defend.

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At least I don’t resort to the dishonest tactic of demanding that my opponents support claims that they never made. It’s a cheap trick.

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The Manchild consists of those who did not love their soul-life EVEN UNTO DEATH. That strongly suggests that they DIED. Delivered and caught up to the throne of God means RESURRECTION and RAPTURE.

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And yet you tried to suggest otherwise.

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I'm not confused. PaulK want to portray me as being confused.

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Then you know perfectly well that you tried to suggest that they were

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Please QUOTE me with the words which lead you to believe that I am saying that the overcomers (Manchild) are BOTH raptured to God's throne in the third heavens AND SIMULTANEOUSLY left on the earth to be persecuted for the thousand two hundred and sixty days.

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I have not made any such claim. I asserted that you made three claims independently. First that they were Raptured, then that they were left on Earth, then that some were Raptured and some were not. None involves any individual both being Raptured and left on Earth.

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Quote the three independent claims for my examination.

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Don’t you know what you said ?I’ve already quoted one, but here are the other two.For the first from Message 790

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The select group taken which comprise the Firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) (living overcomers) and which comprise the Manchild (Rev. 12:5) (deceased overcomers) are first TAKEN to the third heavens.

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And in that message you directly identify the manchild as comprising the brethrenof verse 10

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And the Manchild is also obviously a collective for he is described as "brothers," "their," "them," and "they" (12:10,11)

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(Which amazingly you seemed to forget as soon as I identified the overcomersof verse 11 with the brethren of verse 10 - even though it is a simple matter of grammar)Here is where you suggest that some were Raptured and some were not.

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A PORTION of the saints are resurrected and raptured - a minority.
The LARGER BODY from whom they come remain on earth.

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This means that before the great tribulation a group of saints are raptured.

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I believe that I understand your claim. However your assertion was that the manchild specifically represented the brethren of Revelation 12:10-11, refers to a literal Rapture and precedes the Tribulation. However your explication of the vision of verses 1-5 is sadly lacking, offering no explanation of why it should mean all this.

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I do not mean to communicate that the ones raptured are BRETHREN but the ones left on the earth are NOT BRETHREN.

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And yet you argued that all were left on Earth. The quote has already been given.

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I can stand by this because PLURAL brotherS means a group.

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I do not - and never have denied that the brethren are a group, of course - and it would be silly to suggest that it did. What I question is the assertion that the manchild really does represent the brethrenof verses 10-11

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HOW DO I KNOW THAT THE "THEM, THEIR, THEY, BROTHERS" mean a corporate man-child caught up to God's throne in heaven ?

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I think it is the better interpretation. It may not be the traditional or popular interpretation in Christiandom.

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Yes, you think it is better. But then you thought that there was a pre-tribulation Rapture in Matthew 24. Your opinions are hardly reliable.

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I don't see anything "sadly lacking".

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Your blindness is your problem. In what sense is the dragon waiting to devour the dead? If it is intended literally, why is there no mention of any resurrection. If it is not, then why should we believe that being taken up to Heaven is literal ?

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It may be "sadly lacking" is any effect you have to invalidate a very good interpretation of the symbols of Revelation 12

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You may like that interpretation but it is hardly the only one, nor is it obviously better.

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Your version of "Suddenly some overcoming saints are mentioned. But we don't have a clue who they are " is inferior and arbitrary in logic.

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Assuming that they are represented by the manchild tells us no more about who they are.

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If you say "Well they are in heaven" you inch closer to what I explain.
They are in Heaven because they were caught up to God and to His throne as a Man-child.

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In your opinion. But why should they not be the true Christians on Earth, some of whom have died? Who overcome not with military strength but by remaining true to their faith, no matter what ?

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I asked you before to present evidence that there are people in heaven before this catching up. I think silence was your response.

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I believe that my answer was that I never claimed that there were any humans in heaven. Do you discount Angels as persons ? Or the three persons of the Trinity ?

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I still think there is a pre-tribulation rapture in Matthew 24.
What makes you think I changed my view?

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I didn’t assume that you had. But clinging to an obvious falsehood doesn’t make you look any better.

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I STILL teach that the TAKEN in Matthew 24:40 - 44 specifically the TWO men in the field and the TWO women grinding at the mill are taken suddenly away BEFORE the start of the great tribulation.

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And Matthew 24 verses 37, 42 and 44 all say that that event occurs at the Second Coming which occurs after the Tribulation according to verses 30 and 33.There simply is no doubt about that.

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The dragon throughout the ages has been waiting to devour the saints as they lived unto God

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Glib, but hardly a convincing argument that the manchild represents a particular group of believers.

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I am not sure what you mean here. The revelation is made known to us BY SIGNS. (Rev. 1:1)
Some discernment and skill I exercise to determine how literal to take the details.

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In other words you simply take it literally or not as convenient. We know your discernment is inferior to simply reading the text so it is hardly something to boast of.

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It is the best interpretation. Whoever the man-child IS, he or they have a destiny in that chapter different from the rest of the woman's seed being persecuted on earth.

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According to you, their destiny is the same. Or at least I see no reason why all those who remain to be persecuted should fail - not least the rewards promised to those who come through to The Second Coming without falling.

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Taking into account all of Scripture's history of spiritual warfare, the SIGN of the manchild tells us much. They are a remnant of those who rise to the expected standard of victory over God's enemy through God's salvation.

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You can get that from verse 11 - but not from equating them with the manchild.

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That part is not a human military matter. What about the defeat of Antichrist and his armies? That is done by the breath of Christ's mouth at Armageddon. No, I do not believe human made missiles and bombs defeat Satan and his antichrist and false prophet.

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But indeed you attempt to equate two different uses of overcome. The beast is given the power to overcome the saints by use of force. You held that to contradict the way the saints overcome the devil in verse 11 - but there is no contradiction the two may go together.

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Sounds plausible

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Don’t be deceived by Jaywill. He presented absolutely no argument that the manchild represents a collective.

First, Revelation 10:1-11:14 is an aside that ends abruptly and unnaturally. The events described in it are out of chronological sequence - which is restored in 11:15-19. Since it refers to Luke 21, where the time of the gentiles precedes the cosmic signs (verses 24, 25) I conclude that the entire sequence of events precedes Revelation 6:12.The announcement in 11:15-19 seems more a declaration of what is about to happen, than something that has already happened - although there is no reason to suppose any delay.I believe that Revelation 12 goes back, although it is not a literal account. It seems to me likely that the events symbolised overlap with those described in the early part of chapter 11 (i.e. the 1260 day period mentioned in each is the same period of time).The proclamation in Revelation 12 is not a response to the presumed rapture of the manchild - it is explicitly a response to the defeat of the devil and his angels. Thus it is the dwellers in heaven who are to rejoice, not those in Earth who shall still suffer before the kingdom actually arrives there.I consider it unlikely that the two announcements are meant to be the same event. They have similar content, but the circumstances appear to be quite different. And if they are the same event then Revelation 12 does not jump far back in time at all - verses 17 and on follow the announcement.

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The previous verse 9 and verse 10 should be coupled together to get the effect.

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And verse 9 only reinforces my point.

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This is not a matter of me interpreting Luke 10:17-20 per se. It is a matter of me APPLYING its truth to Revelation 12.

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It is neither. It is using Luke 10:17-20 as an excuse to misrepresent Revelation 12.

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1.) The main rejoicing is that salvation is to those whose names are recorded in heaven

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False. The stated reason for rejoicing is that Satan has fallen and his accusations would therefore cease.

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2.) Nonetheless, joy is to the overcomers who in spiritual warfare, through Jesus Christ, gain authority over Satan and his hosts.

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No, joy is to the heavens and those who dwell in them. Your overcomers are not mentioned.

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3.) The defeating of Satan under the authority of the overcoming saints is also the plunging of Satan down from heaven in a dramatic way.

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It is Michael and his angels who cast the devil out.

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4.) The disciples' work is to be an extension of the work of Christ.

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This really doesn’t seem to be relevant.

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The announcement of the kingdom on earth in Revelation 11:15-18 is therefore inseparably related to the announcement in heaven of the prevailing of the overcomers over Satan in their rapture to heaven and Satan's subsequent expulsion.

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There is no announcement of anyone arriving in Heaven in Revelation 12.

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It reinforces that God's enemy is cast down because of war against him.
But there was war in heaven against him because of the rapture of the man-child.

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It reinforces the point that the rejoicing is because of the fall, not the beginning of the war or the event that caused the devil to rebel.

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I am not surprised that you see no connection.

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But I do not say that there is NO connection. There are similarities but those do not mean that the passage from Luke overrides what the Revelation says.

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It is not that I see something extra. It is that you don't see enough.

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It is not me adding something but you are constricted in what you have the capacity to se

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It’s not you seeing anything extra, it’s just you using flimsy excuses to pretend that Revelation 12 says things it doesn’t and ignore what it does say. I would have to be blind indeed to miss that.

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Those in heaven include those just raptured to heaven.

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When Jesus descends He is accompanied by His mighty ones who are the overcomers who being raptured to heaven are now ready to come back down to the earth WITH Him.

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That assumes that the overcomers are Raptured to Heaven. That’s what you are supposedly arguing for. The mighty ones are more likely angels anyway.I see nothing else that actually addresses the point, just more of your barrage of irrelevance.And I see that you are trying your old trick of proving relevance by talking about something else altogether.

Do you really think your dishonesty is really consistent with being a Christian?
Matthew 24 says that the wars are not the immediate sign of the end, but that hardly means that the end would come centuries after those wars. All the subsequent verses are addressed to the disciples as if they would witness those events, and verse 34 says that the end will come within the lifetime of people living then.The synoptic Gospels, 1 Thessalonians and the Revelation all point to the end arriving in the 1st Century AD - or the early 2nd Century at the outside.Your quote from John is hardly relevant either - there were many living at that time who never saw Jesus at all, let alone were granted an inspection of his wounds as Thomas was, according to verse 20:27. And among those many certainly some became Christians in the following decades. Did you really not think of that ?

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No date can be affixed on His physical coming again from anything in the New Testament.

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I did not affix a date, I merely pointed out that the New Testament repeatedly points to a relatively narrow window of time, a window that ended long ago.As I also pointed out, your attempts to pretend otherwise were at best obvious falsehoods.

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The tactics of these skeptics include making each part of the Scripture as unrelated to any other part as they can.

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Presumably you are talking about yourself, given your frequent attempts to ignore the context of the verses you cite.