Christianity and the End Times

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God says that because some people did not have a love for the truth, strong delusion will be sent upon them. The irony is that they will opt to believe a convincing looking LIE instead

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Fortunately we do love the truth, so your deceptions do not work on us.

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So says the guy who makes Revelation 12:10,11 have absolutely no contextual relationship with anything else in the chapter.

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By which you mean that I do read them in context. You just don’t like the fact that the context doesn’t make the connection you want.But just go on being dishonest, it shows that you are no true Christian.

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By which I mean you don't think the taking up of the man-child has anything to do with proclamation and review of the overcomers.

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Which is exactly what I said. The real context does not make the connection.

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Suddenly, quite unrelated to anything, How the overcomers overcame is rejoiced over.

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And that is untrue, the fall of the devil is celebrated because it will end the accusations he made against the overcomers.

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You just don't like that the connection between the announcement of the kingdom's coming NOW and the explanation of the overcomers is connected to the birth and catching up of the man-child.

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By which you mean that I do read those verses in context.

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No, it shows that you have eyes to see and see not.

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Then please explain how dishonesty is compatible with being a Christian.

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How am I harmed if the man-child caught up to God and to His throne ONLY refers to the individual Jesus ?

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You’d have one less piece of evidence for the pre-tribulation Rapture you want to be in the Bible for one. And that really does matter to you, as you’ve shown.

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Even if I am wrong about the symbolism, the PLAIN TEACHING gives me the saints who overcome reign with Christ. (Rev. 2:26).

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And if you notice I have never argued against that. That is not the issue at all.

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Speaking of honesty, who do you conclude that Jesu Christ was (and perhaps IS)? Are you an atheist?

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So far as I can tell Jesus was an obscure cult leader who lived in early 1st Century Judaea. He was so obscure that even his followers in the latter part of that century didn’t know when he was born, as the Gospels that give datable information point to dates about ten years apart.And I am an atheist.But that is because the truth is important to me. It obviously isn’t to Jaywill, or apparently to you.

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Ah yes. Switch the subject to me warding off ad homs

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No, i’m asking you to support your claim.It’s funny, you ask me to support claims I have never made. You are prepared to accuse me of dishonesty without evidence. But here you are refusing to back up your claim and complaining about being caught in dishonesty.

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So the only "honest" understanding is that the man-child is not a collective?

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That is not something that I have ever claimed.However, an honest understanding of Revelation 12 would admit that the text does not make any overt connection between the manchild of verse 5 with the overcomers of verses 10-11. Which is a simple fact, easily discovered.

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So AFTER his expulsion Satan ceases any more accusation against the saints, and that especially for the following thousand two hundred and sixty days ?

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Certainly not before God.

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Where is the celebrating of the saints after 12:8 on earth that no more accusation from the Devil is coming?

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Why should there be ? 12:12 says that the devil is going to do,an awful lot of harm on Earth.

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Paulk, you say I very much prefer that the Man-child be a collective.

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In fact I say that you desperately want it to be the overcomers mentioned in verses 10-11, and you want it to represent a literal Rapture, too.

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Without me "having my way" how is my expectation thwarted since the plain teaching of Jesus is that the overcomers will co reign with Him ?

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As I have already pointed out, you want the Bible to teach that there will be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Losing one of your best arguments for it certainly seems to be of great importance to you since you argue over it incessantly.

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I can see that your style is to stay away from commitment and claims of faith.
"I never said thus and such."
"I never claimed thus and such."

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By which you mean that I disagree with your misrepresentations of my position. If you do not want to see such responses you should avoid misrepresentation, as the forum rules require.

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You have lots of critiques why others are wrong.
But burden to defend a position alludes you because you didn't CLAIM this or that

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Or because you don’t bother to deal with the claims I do make.

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Understanding the Bible is also a matter of spiritual experience.
You're not seeing what is evident to others.

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I guess my love of the truth saves me from delusion.

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Well he certainly still opposes the saints day and night still.
What suddenly CHANGED in the heavenlies that war was made against him and he found no more place there?

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The reason is not given explicitly. The failure to kill the manchild - whatever that represents would seem a likely cause.

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Including accusing the saints? Yes or No?

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That really isn’t the point. The point is that the accusations before God stop. Certainly those accusations are important enough to be mentioned in the context of the celebration. Why would they celebrate the fall of the devil if that remained unchanged ?

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What happened that suddenly he had nothing more he could say ABOUT them before God in an accusatory way ?

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He was kicked out of Heaven, so he could not appear before God to utter his accusations, of course.

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As I read through WHICH comment begins to express the truth that you LOVE the clearest and best?

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There is no single truth which I love above the truth.My love of the truth is in the commitment to see what the Bible actually says, in the very first post.

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Ie. A Pre-great tribulation rapture is what I really really want? I want it so bad that I twist scripture to make it say so.

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I observe that you want the Bible to say that and you are prepared to twist scripture for that reason, yes. As such questions about motivation are a bit beside the point.

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1.) Did I insist that I KNOW I would participate in such a pre-tribulation rapture?

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Why would that be relevant ?

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2.) Did I offer some guarantee that I would be raptured - pre-great tribulation should I be alive at that time ?

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Why would that be relevant?The question is not even if there will be such a Rapture, the question is whether the Bible says that there will be.I put it to you that you have invested a lot in following certain teachers and if they turned out to be wrong it would mean that investment was foolish and wrong.Luke 21:36 can as easily be about surviving the events on Earth - more easily since verse 21 advises fleeing from Judaea rather than waiting to be Raptured. Verse 28 tells the disciples to look up when the signs appear in the heavens, because their redemption is near.Why should the disciples not be watchful for the signs to flee Judaea at the start of the Tribulation - as one example - rather than watching for signs that aren’t even mentioned ?

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And if I just didn't WANT it to be so, SO BAD, I would make the words mean something else ??

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If you didn’t want it to mean a Rapture you would admit that it doesn’t specify how they would be spared. And that everyone it was originally addressed to is long dead and not exactly at risk.

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Now if you believe Christ's clear word there, it is because you WANT a pre-tribulation rapture SO BADLY, that you won't have the words mean ... something entirely else.

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As I pointed out, it doesn’t say how they will be kept out and dead people - which includes everyone who it was addressed to originally - are out of it anyway.But you won’t even acknowledge those points.

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Revelation is a book of signs.
We have to interpret the signs.

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That is certainly true of the manchild as I have been saying all along. The question is, how does your interpretation fit with the text? The manchild is not shown as overcoming, the overcomers are not mentioned as being in heaven.

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If I misinterpret the sign of the man-child (it is not a group of believers), the PLAIN teaching exists elsewhere to the fact. - as Christ will reign, those who overcome will reign with Him.

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Sure its important.
Ist important to you apparently, to resist the view.

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But I do not resist the view that the Bible says that some believers will reign with Christ. The Bible does say that. And I am not even arguing about whether it will really happen.

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So, you believe the man-child caught up to God and to His throne stands for ...... ?

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Or is it that you have no angel in this fight ?

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The topic is what the Bible really says. If the text is highly unclear, the symbolism not readily decoded, then so be it. I maintain that that is the situation here.