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Author Topic:   The Hate Thread
PaulK
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Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 46 of 67 (861738)
08-26-2019 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Chiroptera
08-25-2019 9:35 PM


Re: The Kochs & Soros
quote:
Also, Soros has been pretty open about his goals and involvement.

But he doesn’t admit to the things the Right make up. Since he is a “Leftist” he is automatically guilty and keeping secrets if he doesn’t confess.


This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
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Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 47 of 67 (861740)
08-26-2019 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
08-26-2019 1:28 AM


Re: The Kochs & Soros
Yeah, I was kind of wondering how I'd explain the difference between carefully researched investigative journalism and some guy sayin' stuff on his blog.

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

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Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 5805
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 48 of 67 (861787)
08-27-2019 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
08-25-2019 4:43 PM


Re: The Media In General Is More Corporate Profit than News
Which I consider to be right wing propaganda bias. From the coverage of Bernie Sanders in the press in 2016 and again now, I see very little coverage of his rallies and positions, some criticism that is misinformed and other slights. This is hardly what I would expect from a leftist media.

That's kind of silly seeing as the entire DNC conspired against Bernie. That's not a measure of how leftist they are, its just a measure of how far that particular group of leftists are willing to go to ensure their selected candidate gets the nod.

The main stream media is owned by corporations that are interested in corporation profits. Bottom Line. This is why - in my opinion - main stream media "news" has become infotainment, self-promotion of stations and fluff pieces on media people (movie stars etc) rather than real news.

Can't argue with any of that. You will never get implicit bias any longer. Its overt, in your face, and obvious. To be objective and impartial is to side with the enemy. They are no longer in the business of reporting the news, the media is now in the business of manufacturing it... guiding it... steering it... and most importantly, controlling the narrative. Views, clicks and cash is the name of the game.

In politics today it seems that Eisenhower would be a "leftist socialist" politician because the republican party has move so far to the right and away from their traditional values. You see this again and again in comments from people that no longer register as republicans that the party has left them.

The Right has shifted further to the right and the Left has shifted further to left. I just watched some hit piece today against Dan Crenshaw, a junior representative and former Navy Seal. He apparently had the temerity to criticize Trump and wants to implement his TAPS Act which is a very modest form of gun control legislation. The hard Right crucified him for both of these ghastly deeds. On the Left we see hit pieces run against presidential candidates who are a little too moderate for the hard Left's taste. Moderate Republicans are being accused of being leftists and Moderate Democrats accused of being Alt-Right. To be a moderate in this country is to be vilified for not toeing the party line. Too far to the left to be a Republican and too far to the right to be Democrat. A political no-man's land... I suspect though that the majority of voters, in all actuality, reside closer towards the middle. Its always the loudest, most shrill, and shrieking hystericals that get the most attention creating a false impression of what it means to be on the left or the right.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
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Posts: 6592
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 49 of 67 (861795)
08-27-2019 8:14 AM


Response to Percy from thread
Message 763
denigrated in this thread. David Koch was a strong supporter of libertarian and conservative causes and a generous philanthropist.

Here is a good look at his charitable giving. It is also exposes charitable giving by plutocrats as the pittance it is, compared to what they have taken from society. They should pay their fair share in taxes.

quote:
In his recent book Winners Take All, Anand Giridharadas argues that contemporary plutocrats who practice what he calls “MarketWorld giving” are Carnegie’s true heirs. Like Carnegie, contemporary moguls believe in “the idea that after-the-fact benevolence justifies anything goes capitalism; that callousness and injustice in the cutthroat souk are excused by later philanthropy; that giving should not only help the underdogs but also, and more important, serve to keep them out of the top dogs’ hair—and, above all, that generosity is a substitute for and a means of avoiding the necessity of a more just and equitable system and a fairer distribution of power.”

This critique of charity as a false solution applies, it should be obvious, not just to right-wing billionaires like the Kochs but equally to their liberal counterparts: George Soros, the Clinton Foundation, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, among many others.

We don’t live in the 19th century. We should move beyond the sentimental hopes of a Charles Dickens, who dreamed of convincing the Ebenezer Scrooges of the world to abandon miserliness for do-gooding. Our goal should be to tax the Scrooges so that the Tiny Tims can enjoy Medicare for All


https://www.thenation.com/...id-kochs-philanthropy-was-toxic


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 67 (861801)
08-27-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Theodoric
08-27-2019 8:14 AM


Re: Response to Percy from thread
That quote is remarkable for saying absolutely nothing about the beneficiaries of Koch's philanthropies. It's nothing but denigrating opinion and namecalling.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 67 (861802)
08-27-2019 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by dwise1
08-25-2019 5:09 PM


Re: The Media In General Is More Corporate Profit than News
Levin uses pretty strong language against the Left, so what? The tactice of focusing on such language only has the purpose of dismissing the serious scholarly work he's done. It's all a smear campaign of labeling and discrediting by insinuation, which is THE Leftist M.O. How telling, how typical, that you don't post an analysis of his thoughtful arguments (of which I suspect you are completely ignorant) but focus only on personality. If the Left does attempt to analyze the work of its opponents, however, it all comes down to this sort of emotional smear anyway.

My guess would be that Michael Savage's language is probably stronger. I like a lot of what he says too, although compared to Levin he's very uneven and I'm often put off by him. But again, so what? The level of sheer vitriol at EvC against the right must be comparable.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 52 of 67 (861804)
08-27-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
08-27-2019 10:24 AM


Re: The Media In General Is More Corporate Profit than News
Why don't you post some of his thoughtful arguments?

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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 67 (861806)
08-27-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Theodoric
08-27-2019 8:14 AM


Re: Response to Percy from thread
I read your link:
Even David Kochs Philanthropy Was Toxic

Some quotes I gleaned from that article:

quote:
Must we celebrate David Koch’s bountiful donations to public institutions, even if we dislike how the duo have pushed the Republican Party (and America as a whole) to the right? Not at all. The Koch brothers’ bad deeds outweigh their public service. Besides, plutocratic philanthropy is a wretched social model.

It’s true that David Koch gave money to cancer research. It’s also undeniable that Koch Industries has given cancer to its workers and other people. David Koch’s New York Times obituary notes that he started funding research into cancer after his own diagnosis in 1992. But behind this heartwarming tale of a tycoon awakening to his mortality is a more disturbing story of an oligarch who mistreated his employees.


As a political moderate, I see good and bad in both liberal and conservative positions. One of my close friends, Paul my accountant, is a champion of Dr.Milton Friedman and after reading much of Friedman's theories, I am semi-convinced that the US would never succeed as a socialist nation. The wealth needs to be generated from somewhere, and simply planning to tax the rich and *make* them pay their *fair share* is unrealistic---they will always find ways to escape that if they so choose.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 54 of 67 (861809)
08-27-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Thugpreacha
08-27-2019 11:27 AM


Re: Response to Percy from thread
Phat writes:

... simply planning to tax the rich and *make* them pay their *fair share* is unrealistic---they will always find ways to escape that if they so choose.


Which is why I don't advocate taxing the rich. We should be trying to restrict how much the rich can steal rather than trying to tax it back from them. The working people should pay the taxes and collect the benefits. We need to improve their situation so they can afford to do it without the "philanthropy" of the rich.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 67 (861812)
08-27-2019 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
08-27-2019 11:45 AM


Re: Response to Percy from thread
We should be trying to restrict how much the rich can steal …

This is one of the most bizarre ideas we hear from the Left. Do those who become rich, say Gates, or Bezos or any of the others, get rich by stealing? Don't they get rich by producing something they are able to sell to huge numbers of people? Where's the stealing? They are creating wealth, their product requires the hiring of huge numbers of employees. There is no diminishing of money, there is a growth of money in society in general as a result of the enterprises created by those who become wealthy.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 56 of 67 (861814)
08-27-2019 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
08-27-2019 12:11 PM


Re: Response to Percy from thread
Faith writes:

Don't they get rich by producing something they are able to sell to huge numbers of people?


They could reduce the price and make only as much as the workers who actually produce the product.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

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JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 57 of 67 (861815)
08-27-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
08-27-2019 12:11 PM


Re: Response to Percy from thread
Most rich people inherited it.

They are creating wealth, their product requires the hiring of huge numbers of employees.

This is the old "trickle-down economics" crap. No, they aren't hiring huge numbers of employees unless there is demand for what they produce. In general they are not "job creators". The job creators are the 99% who create the demand... if they have the money.

Again, trickle down economics failed for Reagan. It failed for W. It failed for Jindal in Louisiana. It failed for Walker in Wisconsin. It failed most spectacularly for Brownback in Kansas, hailed as a perfect test by trickle-down economists, to the point where a Republican legislature overrode a Republican governor's veto to raise taxes and lift Kansas out of the hole Brownback dug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment:

quote:
The Kansas experiment refers to Kansas Senate Bill Substitute HB 2117, a bill signed into law in May 2012 by Sam Brownback, Governor of the state of Kansas.[1] It was one of the largest income tax cuts in the state's history,[2] which Brownback believed would be a "shot of adrenaline into the heart of the Kansas economy".[3]

The law cut taxes by US$231 million in its first year, and cuts were projected to total US$934 million after six years,[4] by eliminating taxes on business income for the owners of almost 200,000 businesses and cutting individual income tax rates,[4] but by 2017, state revenues had fallen by hundreds of millions of dollars,[5] causing spending on roads, bridges, and education to be slashed.[6][7]

...

In education, school districts dealt with cuts by shutting down the school year early,[42] eliminating school programs, cutting maintenance, phasing out teaching positions,[41] enlarging class sizes, increasing fees for kindergarten, and cutting janitorial personnel and librarians.[43] School districts were consolidated and some schools were closed.[10]


That doesn't mention that the state Supreme Court ruled that the education cuts violated the state Constitution, and the Republican legislature reacted by trying to remove the Supreme Court's authority.

Here we are in 2019 after a huge tax cut for the 1% and a minor tax curt for the 99%. Job growth rate has been slower than under Obama. The deficit has ballooned to such incredible size that the Republicans are preparing major cuts to Social Security and Medicare if Trump is re-elected. Aren't you glad they want to take us old folks' money to make up for their giveaway to the 1%?

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 58 of 67 (861816)
08-27-2019 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
08-27-2019 12:11 PM


Re: Response to Percy from thread
quote:
Don't they get rich by producing something they are able to sell to huge numbers of people?

Like opioids ? Especially when people get addicted.


This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 59 of 67 (861817)
08-27-2019 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by JonF
08-27-2019 11:18 AM


Re: The Media In General Is More Corporate Profit than News
Faith won't, because there are no thoughtful arguments.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 67 (861818)
08-27-2019 12:53 PM


What an amazing bunch of non sequiturs.

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