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Author Topic:   NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology?
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Message 2 of 452 (875776)
05-05-2020 7:44 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the NvC-1: What is the premise of Naturalism in Biology? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
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Message 15 of 452 (875797)
05-06-2020 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by dwise1
05-05-2020 10:41 PM


Probably a bit over the top.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Message 87 of 452 (876013)
05-11-2020 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by WookieeB
05-10-2020 4:42 PM


I don't know if you realized it, but you replied to Dr Adequate's Message 65 but quoted from RAZD's Message 11.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by WookieeB, posted 05-10-2020 4:42 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
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Message 91 of 452 (876018)
05-11-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Richard L. Wang
05-10-2020 3:33 PM


Re: Re – Tangle(56&58&61): Let’s move on. Warning: I set up a trap ahead
Hi Richard,

I didn't realize this thread would be accumulating posts at such a rapid rate. Moderation should have stepped in sooner.

From Message 67:

Richard L. Wang writes:

Let’s move on. Warning: I set up a trap called “Life consists of matter and information” for your guys.

Please don't set up traps. The Forum Guidelines encourage you to be clear and precise, presenting evidence and arguments and then through discussion clarifying and elaborating upon them.

From Message 68:

Richard L. Wang writes:

Because the evolution in my mind is different from Neo-Darwinism’s evolution. We’ll discuss it later.

If there's a key distinction between evolution and neo-Darwinian evolution such that you accept one and reject the other then you should make it clear.

From Message 69:

Richard L. Wang writes:

DN represents Neo-Darwinists’ naturalistic explanation of evolution, not evolution itself.

I don't think anyone will see the distinction you're drawing between "evolution" and "evolution itself."

Also, when appropriate it would improve the clarity of your posts to quote the specific portion of a message that you're responding to. There are a couple dBCodes available for this purpose: [quote] and [qs]. See dBCode Help for details.

From Message 76

Richard L. Wang writes:

I have my own creationism, which I mentioned is different from all other creationism. I don’t think it’s a good idea to introduce my creationism all around at once. For example, if it contains ten subtopics, it would be impossible to debate/discussion if I propose all ten subtopics at once. Let’s discuss one subtopic at a time.

There's a general consensus in this thread that your idiosyncratic ideas do not cohere into a consistent and rational whole. Some are trying to gain further insights into your thinking. Being evasive is just raising further suspicions that you're not being honest and forthright.

If your ideas are evidenced and rational then they you should be able to state them clearly. Your inability to make these clear statements and your reluctance to respond to requests for clarification and more information is working against you.

To conclude, I'm seeing multiple comments in this thread that tell me people are seeing you as unclear, obfuscatory, illogical and evasive, and that you're ignoring such feedback. No one can make you care what other people think, but when many people say the same thing it shouldn't be ignored, either. This is a moderated forum, so if moderation thinks they have a point then moderation will step in. I'm stepping in. Please step it up.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-10-2020 3:33 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by GDR, posted 05-11-2020 8:34 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply
 Message 97 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-12-2020 9:49 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply
 Message 103 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-13-2020 10:14 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
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Message 114 of 452 (876167)
05-13-2020 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Richard L. Wang
05-13-2020 10:30 AM


Re: Re-Percy(NvC-3-2): I did not define anything
Richard L. Wang writes:

Which one do you think clearer and better?

Keeping things simple is often a good idea, but not to the point of error. "Life consists only of matter" is as clearly in error as "pizza consists only of dough." How would you characterize the role of ATP if life were only matter?

If I could touch on honesty just a bit, if I claimed I was an ordained minister I would be lying. My inability to display the qualities of such training would be apparent and people would question it. Would you like to come clean about anything?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-13-2020 10:30 AM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-20-2020 9:27 AM Admin has responded

  
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Message 115 of 452 (876168)
05-13-2020 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Richard L. Wang
05-13-2020 10:44 AM


Re: We need a new topic and NvC-3 is a good one
Richard L. Wang writes:

I may propose two more topics -
NvC-4: Can science explain the origin of life on Earth?
NvC-5: Are all genetic mutations random?

I consider all topic proposals on the merits but informed by what I've observed thus far of the proposer's ability to engage in rational, informed and constructive discussion.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-13-2020 10:44 AM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Message 131 of 452 (876397)
05-18-2020 6:10 PM


Information
Here's a link to Richard's book at Amazon: Darwinian-Naturalism is Pseudoscience. It's free on Kindle. Click on the book cover and you can read a good part of it online.

There's a lengthy "About the Author" section. Dr. Wang was born in Shanghai, China, in 1941. He was at Dalhousie University in Canada in the physics department for many years but doesn't feel he published any papers of consequence. He accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in 1993. Because he's a theoretical physicist he knows new information through random mutation is impossible.

He is given to bold unsupported statements.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
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(2)
Message 151 of 452 (876451)
05-20-2020 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Richard L. Wang
05-20-2020 9:27 AM


Re: Re-Admin(114): Still, we need a new topic and NvC-3 is a good topic
Hi Richard,

There are no time requirements for replying. Take your time.

With regard to opening a new thread, is it your view that this thread has reached a consensus about naturalism in biology? If so could you state that consensus?

I'm gaining the strong impression that you do not want to engage with most of the feedback people are providing you. You've responded to only 16 of 60 replies to you, about 25%. I'm not inclined toward opening a new thread for you to repeat that performance.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-20-2020 9:27 AM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-22-2020 3:49 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
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Message 247 of 452 (876709)
05-26-2020 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
05-22-2020 3:58 PM


Re: Re-Admin(151): My response to feedback
To Richard:

ringo writes:

Maybe spend less time analyzing what you need to reply to and more time replying.

What he said.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 05-22-2020 3:58 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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Message 248 of 452 (876710)
05-26-2020 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Richard L. Wang
05-22-2020 4:01 PM


Re: What is a good topic?
Richard L. Wang writes:

However, we still need a topic in order to set a narrow focus and continue our discussion/debate. Here is my suggestion. Based on the feedback, I’ll decide whether to submit. I don’t want to give Admin any more trouble.

If you continue ignoring moderator feedback and insisting on charting your own somewhat unintelligible course, nothing's getting promoted. I don't have hours of time to analyze your cryptic stuff trying to figure it out.

Please stop referring to messages as, for example, Admin(151). You can link directly to messages with [msg=151], which becomes Message 151.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-22-2020 4:01 PM Richard L. Wang has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Message 249 of 452 (876711)
05-26-2020 9:59 AM


Moderator Suggestion Regarding Information
This is a suggestion, there's no need to follow it.

I'd like to suggest that no progress will be made in discussions about information until a common and unambiguous definition is adopted, one where information can be quantified. I propose using the definition of information used by Information theory - Wikipedia.

Here's Shannon's original paper introducing the field of information theory: A Mathematical Theory of Communication. He makes a key statement at one point:

quote:
The fundamental problem of communication is that of reproducing at one point either exactly or approximately a message selected at another point. Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with certain physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem.

Shannon's focus is communication of information (he worked for Bell Labs, the nation's dominant telephone company at the time), so he goes on to define information in a rigorous and mathematical way.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
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Message 292 of 452 (876909)
05-30-2020 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Richard L. Wang
05-29-2020 12:30 PM


Re: Re-Taq(275&276&277), PaulK(278&280), Tangle(279): How does the Genetic Code work?
Hi Richard,

Could you please use the dBCodes. Your first line:

Richard L. Wang writes:

Taq(277) explains in detail that “All of it is natural laws.” And PaulK(264)...

Should instead be:

Richard L. Wang writes:

Taq (Message 277) explains in detail that “All of it is natural laws.” And PaulK (Message 264)...

Creating those links to messages is extremely easy. In your original message simply type this:

Richard L. Wang writes:

Taq ([msg=277]) explains in detail that “All of it is natural laws.” And PaulK ([msg=264])...

If you'd like to see how any message was composed, just click on the "peek" button in the lower right of any message and you'll be shown the original text.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Richard L. Wang, posted 05-29-2020 12:30 PM Richard L. Wang has responded

Replies to this message:
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Posts: 12711
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Message 294 of 452 (876958)
05-31-2020 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by WookieeB
05-11-2020 4:42 PM


Moderator Suggestion
It would be nice to begin your message with, "In this message I'll be replying to both Dr Adequate's Message 65 and RAZD's Message 11. I'll address RAZD's Message 11 first."

Then further down in your post it would be nice to say, "Now, shifting to Dr Adequate's Message 65..."

These are just suggestions to make it less likely that someone will miss a reply from you. You're under no obligation to follow them.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by WookieeB, posted 05-11-2020 4:42 PM WookieeB has not yet responded

  
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Posts: 12711
From: EvC Forum
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Message 295 of 452 (876959)
05-31-2020 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by AZPaul3
05-26-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Moderator Suggestion Regarding Information
AZPaul3 writes:

A second issue with Shannon is that he had no concern for the meaningful content of the message,...

Exactly. I quoted that portion. Science has so far been unable to quantify meaning. It feels to me that the way information is being discussed in this thread requires quantification, so unless the discussion shifts from meaning to Shannon information the discussion is bound to become like comparing different genera of fruit.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by AZPaul3, posted 05-26-2020 2:30 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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