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Author Topic:   Church History In Plain Language (4th edition)
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1 of 51 (883379)
12-03-2020 9:46 PM


I wanted to move the off topic posts from Microbes found in Meteors over to this topic...as they will be on-topic here.

I am reading an informative new book!
(Rather I am listening to it on Audible but I also purchased on Kindle so I can read it as well as listen to it. )
It is high time that I stopped listening to jars critically thought-out yet uninspired explanations regarding Christianity and Church History! I honestly feel that jar lacks spiritual inspiration and after perusing several authors I concluded that Bruce Shelley is a qualified scholar who appears to be an equal to jars scholarly approach in every way. That being said, lets bring my off topic posts and your responses here to hash out. (If anybody else has heard of this book or this author feel free to elaborate within this topic. )

jar writes:

Tangle pointed out the reason you are a Christian is because you were born into a Christian dominated society.

This is true by and large, but I argue that some Christians become Christian Believers through being transformed in their minds rather than simply culturally indoctrinated.

If Jesus were simply human while on earth then there would be no transformation of any individual through encountering him while he was alive or encountering the mysterious Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost) after Jesus was raised.
Note that there were many transformed individuals as well as many who remained unaffected (apparently unconvinced...either willfully or unknowingly;they would fit in well with the crowd of skeptics at this Forum) Shelley explains the nuances of church history thoroughly.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 12-04-2020 12:53 AM Phat has responded
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2020 3:24 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 51 (883384)
12-04-2020 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
12-04-2020 12:53 AM


Evidence pertaining to unexplained miracles.
phat writes:

If Jesus were simply human while on earth then there would be no transformation of any individual through encountering him while he was alive or encountering the mysterious Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost) after Jesus was raised.


nwr writes:

This seems like a huge leap to a conclusion not supported by any evidence.


OK, perhaps. What I am saying is that if Jesus were simply human, where did the miracles, healing and deliverance come from? I believe that there is a spiritual realm, but there is truth(Holy Spirit) and counterfeit(other spirits and phenomena. The spirit is not relative.

And just how would we ever find objective evidence of a spiritual event?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 12-04-2020 12:53 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 12-04-2020 3:36 AM Phat has responded
 Message 14 by nwr, posted 12-04-2020 8:23 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 4 of 51 (883385)
12-04-2020 1:15 AM


Off Topic Questions Answered
From Message 21

ringo writes:

I have as much "subjective experience" of the Holy Spirit as you do.

Is so, why do you question it and go so far as to doubt it? Shelley teaches us what the book says and what the early church did and how they behaved.

We see a clear difference between "believers" (those touched by Jesus) and the clueless masses, which we still have today. So what made you so willfully clueless in light of your subjective experience?

ringo writes:

I refuse to jump to conclusions like you do.

Indeed. Yet you *do* jump to the conclusion that God does not exist. That Jesus was an amalgamation of several stories and myths. That all gods are essentially the same. So yes...yes you do conclude.

ringo writes:

And yet you have no argument against it. All you have is denial.

The story speaks for itself. Demons were cast out. People were healed. Lives were changed. What more do you want?

ringo writes:

But it isn't *my* understanding. It's collective understanding.

According to the Bible, the majority of humanity will deny that the Spirit is real. They prefer their own biological animal feelings over anything that may actually change and transform them for the better.

Phat,addressing jar writes:

You have no belief nor subjective evidence of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Holy Spirit *is* reality. Not that you will ever see it.

jar writes:

If that were true Phat you would be able to show verifiable evidence of its existence but neither you or anyone else has ever been able to do so!

Unexplained spiritual actions do not nor cannot provide verifiable evidence,unless the individual themselves is touched.

You have either never experienced transformation or your critical mind denied the experience and sought alternate explanations. You seem to prefer further questions rather than any answers.
And THAT is reality!

Phat writes:

Perhaps you can logically argue that we all have our own experience...which is true, but the fact that so many of our experiences are very similar in detail...down to the little things...is to me subjective evidence. We don't simply internalize and repeat each others stories...we have our own and they are external experience rather than internal imagination.

jar writes:

As does every Hindu and Satanist and Muslim and Jew and ...

And what? What are you trying to prove? That truth is relative? That there is no right or final answer?

You seem to be unable to understand what evidence is.
You seem unwilling to commit to any belief which does not allow your brain and ego to veto so that you may be your own god and final arbiter.

Edited by Phat, : spelling

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-04-2020 7:10 AM Phat has responded
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 12-04-2020 12:03 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 51 (883391)
12-04-2020 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
12-04-2020 3:36 AM


Re: Evidence pertaining to unexplained miracles.
AZPaul3 writes:

My strongest spiritual event was when I was poopin’ ‘n ‘snoopin’ through the woods (technical military term) in the wee hours on a moonless cold winter field away from all light. Then the eyes settled into night mode. To the south was the milky way in all her glory spreading out across the skyline lit up like a billion sparklers set in unison. All over the sky in every direction blazed bright with stars to a depth I had never seen. All those photons. How old were they? How far had they come? I reached out my arm and cast a shadow in star light.

I had an epiphany of enlightenment that moment. How insignificant and yet how significant this little speck of life-covered rock really is. It struck deep and it struck hard. We are precious because, apparently, we are rare. Yet in this galaxy of extreme violence we are just a fragile speck of flotsam open to destruction at any moment from anywhere.

Reminds me of a scripture...

Deut 4:15-20 writes:

15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

When my sister lived in Arizona she got sorta nutty like that. Something "spiritual" about those vortexes around the rocks in Sedona. She could have used a dose of Deuteronomy also. But to each his own.

And one more thing. Yes, we *are*rare. But I hate the term some use that we have "won a giant cosmic lottery". For this is no mere probability. It is infinite grace. God chose us. Not out of a trillion possibilities. But out of love.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 12-04-2020 3:36 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by AZPaul3, posted 12-04-2020 4:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 51 (883395)
12-04-2020 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-04-2020 7:10 AM


Answers To Question
jar writes:

All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god.

So that says it all. You are a believer in a product of human imagination. I daresay I am not, though there is no way to prove it to you. I will allow for your statement that GOD if GOD exists exists whether we all believed,none of us believed,or even if we did not exist....so I recall that you are on the same page as to GOD by7 definition and that you are simply describing God of human imagination. But you dance all around this issue. Jesus is Gods character. Jesus existed. Jesus taught humans. And this is where you stop. I go farther. I say Jesus is alive today and because of this, humans and God can be in communion.
When there are unexplained events it is only reasonable to acknowledge that they are unexplained and stop making up answers.
If so, why do you say you are a believer? My so called made-up answers validate my belief, though I still question it. You seem to think that you are a believer because the Episcopal Bishop with the funny hat and clothes gave you a certificate. How is that any less silly?
jar writes:

And that is all you do Phat, make up answers.

Someone made up that guys wardrobe. Let me ask you this...it may clear up our argument.
  • Is Church a place to find solace in an answer or is church a place to ask questions? And if so, to whom do we address these questions? The GOD Who Is or the God of our individual and collective imaginations? I believe the former. You likely will believe the latter.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 12-04-2020 7:10 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by jar, posted 12-04-2020 3:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 11 of 51 (883396)
    12-04-2020 2:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
    12-04-2020 12:03 PM


    Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
    ringo writes:

    So, one more time: Why have YOU not been transformed?

    I am being transformed. I have not yet arrived. Care to argue?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by ringo, posted 12-04-2020 12:03 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by ringo, posted 12-07-2020 11:08 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 15 of 51 (883407)
    12-05-2020 9:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by nwr
    12-04-2020 8:23 PM


    Re: Evidence pertaining to unexplained miracles.
    Im thinking that if a guy had just studied church history and observed dishonest televangeliats thwy would conclude that apologetics is all about making it up. I honestly believe that some Christians become literally saved(born again) and /or transformed but a onetime epipany wears off unless the individual counts the coat and actually wants the transformation. As some of you have said before, the call of a Christian is hard work !!!!

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by nwr, posted 12-04-2020 8:23 PM nwr has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by nwr, posted 12-05-2020 11:56 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 17 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 8:14 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 18 of 51 (883410)
    12-06-2020 11:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by jar
    12-06-2020 8:14 AM


    Registered Members & Believers
    jar writes:

    Are there any televangelists that are not dishonest?

    How would we test them? That's a bit like asking whether any politicians are honest...or any lawyers. Indeed...one could then ask if any humans are honest.

    Upon reading the Bible, I concluded that the people known as the believers--in the Book of Acts...were by and large honest(because they were believers after all) and ringo and I have discussed Ananias and Sapphira and what happened to them and why. A lot is determined by what it means to "become a believer".

    Is it as simple as saying

    quote:
    I am a Christian because I am a registered member of the Episcopal Church.
    The believers in Acts had no church. One could argue that it was the beginning of one of the Orthodox churches (which included Rome) or one could argue that it was the Ecclessia but even then we have questions. Take these scripture in context from the Book of Acts:

    Acts 1:15 writes:

    In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty)

    Were these 120 "believers" merely registered members of the Orthodox "church" of that day? I would argue that they were believers because they all had the Holy Spirit and were called out.

    My point is that the "church" (aka the believers) became rapidly watered down as to their commitment, their anointing , and their purpose in life. If you recall, the very first Disciples left all that they had.( ringo seems to think that anyone calling themselves a believer should do likewise) We can deduce, however, that by the time the Roman Catholic Church had broken away from the Eastern Orthodox churches--indeed long before---the Christians and their leaders were already behaving very carnally, politically, and divisively.

    Wiki(Christian Church) writes:

    Christian Church is a Protestant ecclesiological term referring to the church invisible comprising all Christians, used since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. In this understanding, "Christian Church" (or "catholic church") does not refer to a particular Christian denomination but to the "body" or "group" of believers, both defined in various ways. A prominent example of this is the branch theory maintained by some Anglicans. This is in contrast to the one true church applied to a specific concrete Christian institution, a majority Christian ecclesiological position maintained by the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East.

    Most English translations of the New Testament generally use the word "church" as a translation of the Ancient Greek: ἐκκλησία, romanized: ecclesia, found in the original Greek texts, which generally meant an "assembly" or "congregation".[1] This term appears in two verses of the Gospel of Matthew, 24 verses of the Acts of the Apostles, 58 verses of the Pauline epistles (including the earliest instances of its use in relation to a Christian body), two verses of the Letter to the Hebrews, one verse of the Epistle of James, three verses of the Third Epistle of John, and 19 verses of the Book of Revelation. In total, ἐκκλησία appears in the New Testament text 114 times, although not every instance is a technical reference to the church.[2] As such it is used for local communities as well as in a universal sense to mean all believers.[3] "Christianity", on the other hand, was first by the Church Father Saint Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–108/140 AD).

    The Four Marks of the Church first expressed in the Nicene Creed (381) are that the Church is one, holy, catholic (universal), and apostolic (originating from the apostles).[4]

    I guess my question to you is this: Does a "registered member" equate to a "believer" or in some instances is the term merely a formality based upon a onetime public affirmation?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : spelling


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 8:14 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 12:57 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 19 of 51 (883412)
    12-06-2020 12:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
    12-04-2020 12:03 PM


    Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
    So much to argue here! But then I expect that from you.

    First of all lets address this term "subjective". How do *you* know that the Holy Spirit is subjective? I suppose you can argue that whether or not the Holy Spirit even exists is subject to your evidence, but "spirit" cannot be measured nor quantified though many *do* insist that it exists. One problem is that you guys insist that evidence must be available to everyone whereas the Bible Thunkers insist that few will actually get it. You have dismissed it all as a story anyway, which protects your spiritual responsibility. (Yet you insist that since I take it literal or claim to do so, I must sell everything...which is a clever way to back me into a corner )

    And even if we agree with your arguments that they all are characters in a book (or books) we then must determine why the books were written to begin with. (Hint: Treasure Island was never meant to describe actual events)

    It has no more relevance than my favorite movie or my favorite flavor of ice cream.
    And that was your choice--to assign "it" the relevance that you chose to give it. If I, as a character in a book described by many as eternally alive .. tell ringo to sell all that he has, he can simply write me off as Elmer Gantry.

    Everybody has their own subjective experiences. They're all colored by the environment we grew up in. There is no universal truth to anybody's subjective experiences.
    And yet there may be a singular universal truth that not everyone can or will see due to their experiences and conclusions thus far. Reality is often muddied up as a perception due to experiences.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by ringo, posted 12-04-2020 12:03 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by ringo, posted 12-07-2020 11:37 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 21 of 51 (883414)
    12-06-2020 2:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by jar
    12-06-2020 12:57 PM


    Orthodoxy vs jars Socratic Relativism
    The issue in this thread is twofold. To discuss Church History and human attempts to define Orthodoxy through various Councils vs Heresey and whether the truth of Jesus Christ as written is absolute or simply relative.
    jar writes:

    Phat, the believers in Acts are simply characters in a story.

    No shit Sherlock. Books are stories. Some books are intended as fiction, some as propaganda, and some as historical narrative.
    So lets address your question in Message 17
    If someone has actually studied church history and read the Bible how could they not conclude that apologetics is all about making it up? Are there any televangelists that are not dishonest?
    I feel that I began to address your question. You are quite brash at times. Must be how you behaved on the Masters porch 65 years ago.
    jar writes:

    Once again, instead of actually addressing the question you wander off into totally unrelated areas.

    We can let the peanut gallery determine that.
    jar writes:

    The characters in the stories found in Acts have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Apologists today.

    This is true in the context of the differing times, customs and experiences that each group was exposed to. ringo argues that the book clearly says that the early church was willing to lay it all at the Apostles feet, but the economic and political realities of thoise times were indeed very different from the life that you, I, or any modern apologist lead.
    jar writes:

    A "registered member" means that you have been acknowledged as being a member of an organization.

    True. The 120 believers mentioned in Acts were acknowledged by the Apostles themselves and the clear reference was to a belief in the life, death,burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    jar writes:

    Being a "believer" has NO uniform meaning whatsoever.

    Note the definition of the word you used.
    Being a "believer" only has no uniform meaning in a generic sense of the word. We are talking about believers in Jesus Christ both then and now.
    jar writes:

    All of the people that make up the "Church Christian" (or Muslim or Hebrew or Buddhist or Satanist or Hindu or ...) are believers.

    There is no uniformity between those groups. Except that they all are human.
    jar writes:

    But there is no universal or uniform or correct or TRUE belief.

    And this, sir is where your train left the tracks. Episcopalians have at least some uniformity6 with any other recognized Christian Church. They have (or should have) NO uniformity with Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Mormonism or Atheism. And THAT is reality.
    jar writes:

    The Aryan Christian Church was not Trinitarian.

    The Roman Church was Trinitarian. Both were believers, believers in the same God and in Jesus but one group claimed that Jesus was God and not a separate individual while at the very same time claiming that Jesus sat at the Right Hand of God.

    And one group was correct..Orthodox...and the other group were heretics. Relativism does not apply as a path to the truth.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 12:57 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 3:04 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 23 of 51 (883417)
    12-06-2020 3:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by jar
    12-06-2020 3:04 PM


    Re: Orthodoxy vs jars Socratic Relativism
    I would argue that of the 120 mentioned in Acts all were orthodox believers. Since that time, the unity of orthodoxy was challenged by the enemy infiltrating human understanding. The Aryans became heretics.....even if you argue that it was due to might and power. God is the only orthodox might and power and His Spirit has mercy on whom it so chooses. At one time He cxhose the Jews alone and unique among human peoples. At a later time He included the Gentiles who became believers(and doers) while some now argue that He includes everyone. I disagree. Its not that easy. He surely does His part and has mercy on whomsoever He chooses. And yes He could choose the other beliefs first...before the Club:Christians if we fail to accept the invitation. Or He may even choose to include everyone due to His endless mercy. But I think you are jumping the gun.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 3:04 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 3:41 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 25 of 51 (883420)
    12-06-2020 3:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by jar
    12-06-2020 3:41 PM


    Re: Orthodoxy vs jars Socratic Relativism
    So can you argue that you and the registered members of your church could even hold a candle to the 120 believers in Acts? They believed that Jesus was eternally alive with us. They did not believe in relativism. The modern day critical thinker is clueless towards absolute truth, likely believes that it(He) does not even exist, and if so that it is a product of their imagination and thus allowably relativistic.

    Edited by Phat, : spelling


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 3:41 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by jar, posted 12-06-2020 5:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 29 of 51 (883439)
    12-08-2020 11:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by ringo
    12-07-2020 11:37 AM


    Re: Subjectivity In Saskatchewan
    ringo writes:

    For another thing, there are thousands of religions on earth and millions of "subjects", each of them with his/her own experiences.

    There are basically two groups of people on earth
    1)The Body Of Christ.
    2) The rest.(which will, if stubborn enough, end up being the children of the antichrist.) Think carefully before rejecting Christ.

    The Holy Spirit is not your relativistic hippie spirit that you had in the sixties.
    You may have been on the pathg, but you and AZPaul3 smoked too much weed and let your rational brains take over once you stopped. We will come by in a truck and pick you up from your acid trip by the pyramid once you come down.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by ringo, posted 12-07-2020 11:37 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by ringo, posted 12-08-2020 11:57 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 12-08-2020 3:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 33 by anglagard, posted 12-08-2020 5:41 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 30 of 51 (883441)
    12-08-2020 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
    12-07-2020 11:08 AM


    Re: Off Topic Questions Answered
    Of course I care to argue. We are ALL "being transformed" - some for the better, some for the worse. The fact is that there is NO correlation between "transformation" and Christianity.
    Newsflash: The mind does not transform itself. Better run...you missed the school bus.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by ringo, posted 12-07-2020 11:08 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by ringo, posted 12-09-2020 11:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15608
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 35 of 51 (883454)
    12-08-2020 6:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 33 by anglagard
    12-08-2020 5:41 PM


    Book Perspective From A Librarian
    Anglagard, since you are here it will discipline me to get back to my topic. Have you ever heard of this book and how would you rate it if you have?

    I really need to resume critiquing and explaining my take on this long book if I may. I have been listening to it extensively on audible but I keep falling asleep and need to ask Alexa to back it up an hour or two each day.

    I'm slogging through it, however. I believe I am down to the 1066 split, though I really need to review some of it and read it via hard-copy once that arrives in the mail. Audible is great, but it makes me lazy.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by anglagard, posted 12-08-2020 5:41 PM anglagard has not yet responded

      
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